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IRC log for #javaee, 2013-10-18

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:05 pdurbin fortran is still used in scientific computing
00:10 sfisque aye.  i'm guessing though, it's more to produce high performance libraries that are then consumed by other languages (C, java, C++, etc.)
00:11 sfisque i can only imagine what making a corba call woudl look like in fortran …  /shiver
00:11 pdurbin I dunno... I'm pretty sure a lot of astronomers write straight up Fortran
00:12 sfisque yah, if you're doing straight numerical processing, it wouldnt be bad
00:13 sfisque i'm just thinking you wouldnt want to write a fortran program that existed in a fabric somewhere.  you'd want a library to do the heavy lifting and wrap it in some other langauge that was good for "the other stuff"
00:14 pdurbin certainly that's the Perl way. wrap that C library
00:15 sfisque java too.  i've worked on products that made JNI calls
00:15 sfisque java is great but there are other languages that are better at certain things
00:16 pdurbin what C libraries does Java commonly wrap?
00:16 sfisque any low level networks (icmp, etc.)
00:16 sfisque ***networking
00:16 sfisque direct serial i/0
00:17 sfisque on macos, preX, you could bind to the quicktime libs to do multi-media
00:21 pdurbin hmm. ok. I'm just saying a C library like discount (parses Markdown) and someone will write a Perl XS module to wrap it. or Ruby (rdiscount). not sure how much this is done in Java
00:22 pdurbin instead someone will write Markdown4j
00:22 sfisque you build a "native stub" in java and on the C side you compile against a lib and some .h files
00:22 sfisque its VERY similar to doing corba
00:22 sfisque except you're talking to a library and not a remote container
00:23 sfisque ooph, it's late.  gotta run.   this was a fun chat today, thx all.   code strong!
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05:05 sfisque whartung you around?
05:28 scripty joined ##javaee
06:20 scripty Does your program execute as you intead to without using synchronied
06:24 Fubar^ joined ##javaee
06:25 scripty ????
06:25 scripty Anyone
06:28 scripty pdurbin
06:29 Fubar^ what did you ask?
06:30 scripty Does your program execute as you intead to without using synchronied
06:32 Fubar^ my program?
06:35 scripty Any program more generally you use all the time synchronized or rarely as per required
06:35 Fubar^ I use it when i need to
06:37 scripty why not always ?
06:38 scripty Does this means you know which thread gets executed ?
06:39 * scripty says in his head i'm soo stupid to use 1.4 :P when will i see 1.5 haha
06:43 Fubar^ If i would use it always i would have no concurrency
06:50 scripty so what you do
06:53 scripty i guess MAGIC
06:55 Fubar^ I know what my code does and how it's supposed to be used. So i know if it needs to be synchronized
06:57 scripty how it does ?
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07:17 Fubar^ I'm not sure what you want to know
07:39 scripty Do you know how concurrency works ?
07:50 Fubar^ yes
07:51 scripty how ?
07:52 Fubar^ If you ask something more specific i might be able to answer :)
07:55 scripty That means things are Magic
07:57 scripty lets take an example i have 2 methods shout() and drag() , calling drag method first then later shout , does the program goes inorder or not ?
08:29 Fubar^ if they are called from the same thread they are in order
08:30 scripty so its unsure.
08:31 scripty Well you mentioned  "<Fubar^> I know what my code does and how it's supposed to be used. So i know if it needs to be synchronized"
08:31 Fubar^ yes?
08:32 scripty so you know which thread executed in order ?
08:33 Fubar^ I know that if its executed from different threads it's not ordered. So if i need it to be ordered in that circumstance i need to use some kind of locking
08:34 scripty Your statement claims to me that you have noidea how concurrency works and things happens magically ... Like it.
08:36 Fubar^ there is no magic involved and I dont think i insinuated that there is any
08:39 Fubar^ If what you mean by "noidea how concurrency works" is that i can't tell you which order the methods would be called in. The reason is because the order isn't deterministic
08:40 scripty You said i wont use synchronized for all since you wont get concurrency and later example you gave a uncertanity(propability) and still you use such code and claim things work fine.
08:40 scripty probability*
08:41 Fubar^ If my code is thread safe without synchronizing why wouldn't it work fine?
08:42 Fubar^ It's also alright to have not thread safe code as long as it's documented
08:42 scripty so how you make thread safe
08:42 scripty ?
08:42 Fubar^ It depends on what i'm trying to do
08:43 scripty can you give some example
08:43 Fubar^ Take java.lang.String for example. No methods are synchronized but it's completely thread-safe
08:44 scripty how about java.lang.Math and StrictMath
08:45 scripty String are constants
08:46 Fubar^ You mean that String is immutable, and yes that is a way to make classes thread-safe
08:47 Fubar^ Math doesn't have state or side-effects so it's thread safe
08:50 scripty how about in bussiness layer
08:50 scripty business*
08:51 Fubar^ It depends
08:51 scripty like  ?
08:51 scripty Hae you used synchronized in that layer often ?
08:51 scripty Have*
08:51 Fubar^ Sometimes
08:52 Fubar^ I know these arent the answers you are looking for but your questions are to general
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13:12 balazare Has anybody here integrated JNI code into a EE component or app?
13:23 pdurbin balazare: sfisque maybe: http://irclog.greptilian.com/javaee/2013-10-18#i_32029
13:27 balazare pdurbin: funny, didn't see that we had that subject today :)
13:29 balazare pdurbin: I am trying to figure out a sensible way to some jni into an ee environment.
13:31 pdurbin balazare: any usefuls docs on it?
13:33 balazare pdurbin: it is some code I wrote a long time ago, and now I need it in another project
13:33 balazare pdurbin: not too much doc: https://github.com/umeding/isomorphism
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13:34 pdurbin balazare: oh, you're in Boston too
13:34 balazare pdurbin: yep :) you too?
13:35 pdurbin yep: http://people.iq.harvard.edu/~pdurbin
13:35 balazare pdurbin: neat! I am little west in Natick
13:37 pdurbin I think I've been to the scrub a dub out there
13:37 Naros joined ##javaee
13:37 balazare pdurbin: that pretty close!
13:38 balazare pdurbin: data verse looks like a great project
13:38 Naros joined ##javaee
13:39 pdurbin pull requests welcome! I just updated our dev guide to reflect the change from ant to maven: https://github.com/IQSS/dvn/blob/develop/doc/sphinx/source/dataverse-developer-main.rst :)
13:40 pdurbin seems like our app runs on EE 7 so I'm hoping we can move to that soon. some tweaks required first
13:42 pdurbin says a guy on our team
13:44 Naros joined ##javaee
13:47 balazare pdurbin: have you tried it in GF4?
13:48 balazare pdurbin: I moved all of my stuff with little trouble
13:56 pdurbin balazare: cool. no, but the guy who did should walk in the door any minute
13:57 pdurbin actually, he said it runs fine as a java ee 6 app on glassfish 4. he's tweaking the pom file to make it a java ee 7 app, from what I understand
13:58 balazare pdurbin: ah ok, that'll work
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14:01 sfisque balazare you would have to do it in a JCA because since you're leaving the jvm, you'll need specialized transaction boundary management
14:01 sfisque most likely XA transactions
14:04 balazare sfisque: I need to look at JCA and see what is involved. Another idea I had was to create a Corba wrapper and integrate that
14:05 sfisque aye, you could do RMI-IIOP then
14:05 balazare sfisque: yes, that would work too
14:06 sfisque same solution.   corba on remote side, rmi-iiop on client (ee) side
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14:07 balazare sfisque: have you used JCA?
14:12 balazare sfisque: looks straightforward enough, not sure yet if it makes sense to shoehorn my JNI into a DataSource paradigm - I need to think about that
14:13 sfisque most who have written ee has 'used' jca.   JMS and most jdbc drivers are jca adapters
14:13 sfisque i have written a jca adapter on 2 occasions.  it's not trivial, but approachable
14:14 sfisque even if you go the corba/iiop route, you'll still need to investigate your transaction profile, since you might need xa transactions, depending on what the external lib is doing
14:17 balazare sfisque: that's true, luckily my JNI is only processing, there are no transactions
14:17 sfisque that definitely simplifies it a bit
14:18 balazare sfisque: I need to manage the object lifecycle though, the JNI takes cues from the JVM to manage its memory
14:19 sfisque by manage are you meaning "respond to callbacks" or "actively monitor"?
14:20 balazare balazare: respond to callbacks
14:21 sfisque how are the callbacks going to propogate into the container (assuming an ejb is responding)
14:23 balazare sfisque: good question, I am not sure yet, I had it running as a simple Java app in the past
14:23 balazare sfisque: the main hook is the call to the finalizer
14:24 sfisque also, do you anticipate launching an indeterminate number of these from the container or are you going to have a synchronized queue of some form that runs through a conduit?
14:25 sfisque you don't necessarily need to know right now, but i ask these questions because they will be/are important to the design
14:27 balazare sfisque: TY good questions, I don't think the app will get "hammered" it is an occasional low usage
14:28 balazare sfisque: it could be a one after each processing - I don't see them running more than once every few days
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14:41 sfisque oh, then you can probably get away with an @Singleton which will simplify the design quite a bit
14:42 sfisque mark the methods as non transactional, so you can "fire and forget", and you should be ok
14:46 balazare balazare: you are right that will do the trick, then I can push the ejb in its own container and run it where ever I want
14:49 balazare sfisque: you are right that will do the trick, then I can push the ejb in its own container and run it where ever I want
14:51 sfisque the other option i see, would be instead of @Singleton, do a @Stateless and mark the method as @Asynch so its completely decoupled from any other processing that java side is doing.  that would make it really fire and forget
14:51 sfisque unless yiou need a "session" to report errors back to, then forget what i just said :-)
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15:27 pdurbin god I love http://testshib.org
15:32 MegaMatt That does seem really handy, pdurbin
15:44 pdurbin MegaMatt: you can see the IdP logs in real time. But don't add any noise to them right now, please :)
15:44 MegaMatt Oh, I'm not going to test anything atm, - but I will bookmark it for later ;)
15:47 pdurbin MegaMatt: you should join ##shibboleth: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/shibboleth/2013-10-18
15:48 MegaMatt Probably, considering how much I need to learn ...
15:48 MegaMatt Ok, You've convinced me.
15:49 MegaMatt I see the noise ratio there will not be high ;)
15:52 pdurbin no kidding
15:54 whartung sfisque: sup
15:54 whartung (hi all)
15:55 whartung success pdurbin ?
15:56 pdurbin whartung: baby steps
15:56 whartung cool
16:01 pdurbin whartung: still playing with the OIOSAML demo app: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PCutRX-k4ih80uoXBqSuOK6GVKmTXUPahTGXDhue5Wk/edit?usp=sharing
16:02 whartung nice
16:02 pdurbin not sure how to get the "perform attribute query" thing to go
16:03 whartung can't really even say what that does
16:11 sfisque heya
16:11 whartung o/
16:12 sfisque so whartung you got any good recommendations for a forth tutorial.  i'm at least curious enough to write a hello world program and see where i go from there
16:13 whartung http://www.forth.com/starting-forth/
16:13 whartung and then http://thinking-forth.sourceforge.net/
16:14 sfisque excellent.  thx.  when i googled i didnt find anything approachable as far as tutorials go.  hence my solicitation of a recommendation :-)
16:17 sfisque anywho, packing up.  ttyas! and code strong!
16:17 whartung \o
16:23 * scripty listening to Music
16:23 * whartung listening to Voices
16:29 scripty joined ##javaee
16:30 whartung scripty: Your evil twin is listening to your records...
17:10 Quest sess,  Naros  appologies I mixed up something we talked earlier, If i want to delete an Entity which may have many child entities of which it is a parent, whats the best way to delete them all? like deleting directory and file tree.  e.g a Box entity has many childBoxList(s) in it. ?
17:12 Naros Quest, look up orphanRemoval
17:12 Quest hm
17:13 Naros http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19798-01/821-1841/giqxy/index.html
17:13 Quest ok
17:15 Quest Naros,  orphan removal is valid for  one-to-one or one-to-many    . not manytomany?
17:16 Naros programatically :P
17:16 Naros yes, it doesn't work for ManyToMany
17:16 Naros Only where single cardinality exists on the source
17:16 Quest the doc only wrote about  one-to-one or one-to-many
17:16 Naros basically OneToOne and OneToMany permit this
17:16 Quest hm
17:17 Quest ok. so I just make it true and delete the parent in normal way. it will auto check and delete the children?
17:17 Naros Now, I can't recall specifically, but I do believe Hibernate offers a M:M orphan concept
17:17 whartung you can also cascade at the DB level
17:17 Naros but its provider specific.
17:19 Naros Just remove the child from the list.  At that point it is considered orphaned and JPA will do its job
17:19 Quest hm. what if i also needed same functionality for ManyToMany?
17:19 Quest whartung,  cascade? you mean delete manual recursive?
17:20 Quest Naros,  what do you mean by "Just remove the child from the list."?
17:20 whartung entity.children.remove(child)
17:20 whartung you can add ON CASCADE DELETE to the foreign key definition in the database
17:21 Naros the above statement implies that the child has been orphaned when the parent no longer "wants" it.
17:22 Naros For ManyToMany, you simply alter who manages the relationship and merge it back to the datastore.
17:22 Naros user.getRoles().remove(role1);
17:22 Naros user.getRoles().remove(role2);
17:22 Naros em.merge(user);
17:23 Naros We rarely use M:M here
17:23 Naros I believe using CascadeType.ALL is necessary here, right whartung?
17:24 whartung well, at least CascadeType.DELETE
17:24 Naros True
17:25 Naros actually, that should be REMOVE i thinks
17:25 Quest talking to  some other guys in #hibernate. they say contrary to well if i  have put orphanRemoval="true"  on the parent. and i do entityManager.remove(parent);  , hibernate will auto delete ALL of its children and subchildren recursively?
17:26 Naros Absolutely.  It's like, as morbid as it sounds, parent dies in car crash, children no longer have mommy & daddy.
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17:27 Naros Isn't that what you want, removing parent = all children deleted too?
17:27 Naros there is a hierarchy here, yes?
17:28 Quest yes
17:33 Quest Naros,  if the parent of an entity goes null or is deleted. its orphaned and it will be deleted as well. and then it itself if had any children, those will be deleted as well. so we are good with orphan removal
17:34 Naros What Steve was recommending was to use the cascade=CascadeType.XXXX part of the mapping parameters.
17:35 Quest why ? and whos steve
17:35 Naros sebersole is steve :)
17:35 Quest yup
17:36 sebersole joined ##javaee
17:36 Naros What he was trying to explain was the difference between orphaning and cascading.
17:36 Quest hm..
17:37 Quest cascading will just blindly delte the children. (even if the child had some other parent or reference)
17:37 Naros If you remove a child from a parent collection, it is orphaned.  So what do you want to happen in that situation.
17:37 Quest Naros,  true ?
17:38 Quest if true, then orphan thing wil  suit me more than cascade
17:38 sebersole Quest: thats only practically a question in many-to-many
17:38 Quest sebersole,  hm.. true again
17:38 sebersole in 1-1 or 1-m there is no " some other parent "
17:38 Naros if I delete the parent entity and want children to be deleted too, cascade handles that.
17:39 Naros if I want to remove a child from a collection and have JPA clean it up, orphanRemoval handles that
17:39 sebersole they are completly different use cases
17:39 sebersole an entity normally defines its own lifecycle
17:39 sebersole orphanRemoval changes that semantic
17:40 sebersole and says, "no, actually this things lifecycle is completely dependent on that other thing"
17:40 Quest well shortly, whats the diff b/w orphan and cascade.      cascade just go recursive and deletes all children and children of those children             while orphan watches if a child's parent is ==null or removed. it deletes the child. it also goes recurse.      so basicaly they both are same?
17:41 Naros Who said orphan removal was recursive?
17:41 sebersole i really dont understand what is so hard to understand here
17:41 sebersole well neither is cascade ;)
17:41 Quest Naros> if I want to remove a child from a collection and have JPA clean it up, orphanRemoval handles that ?      clean it up?  the child is already deleted. why clean up
17:41 sebersole they each are defined association by association
17:42 Naros Your use case Quest is "entity.getChildren().remove(child);"
17:42 Quest Hm.. I think I should be back after some reading.  and with some dinner too...
17:42 Naros You want when the child is removes from the parent entity, for it to be removed from the database.
17:42 sebersole yes, your assumption that "the child is already deleted." is utterly wrong
17:42 sebersole normally that simply unsets the fk
17:42 sebersole sets it to null
17:42 Naros Right
17:42 Quest Naros,  no. I want the childs and sub childs to be auto removed when a parent is removed
17:43 Quest be right back.! thanks again.
17:43 sebersole and thatsd g*dd*amn cascaDING
17:43 * Naros giggles.
17:43 sebersole as i have said now for like 30 mionutes :)
17:43 Naros Right, so placing CascadeType.REMOVE on the children collection :P
17:44 Naros Hence why they're two different scenarios, depending on the use case Quest.
17:44 Naros well more than two but two semantics
17:45 Naros cascade vs orphaning as discussed in #hibernate
18:11 * scripty hibernate makes you go mad
18:16 scripty IS hibernate too Difficult OR Is the OP making it too dificult i dont get it :(
18:19 tjsnell dreamreal in ##java is writing a hibernate book
18:20 tjsnell he's banned from here without ever actually being here
18:24 scripty oh ! hibernate book
18:24 scripty :/
18:27 sebersole scripty: some things really are just too difficult for some people ;)
18:27 sebersole then the debate is where the difficulty lies
18:28 Quest http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18813341/what-is-the-difference-between-cascade-and-orphan-removal-from-db
18:28 Quest For remove cascade: If you invoke setOrders(null), the related Order entities will NOT be removed in db automatically.
18:29 scripty When i started out with hibernate people werent using at all now its like you wont see people not using it :P
18:30 tjsnell we use openjpa
18:30 scripty yeah i worked that too
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18:32 sebersole scripty: when was this?
18:32 * scripty i used JPA 2010
18:32 sebersole i have used and developed hibernate for 12+ years now
18:32 sebersole Hibernate has been around way before that
18:32 sebersole and was extremely popular before jpa
18:33 scripty cough cough
18:34 tjsnell though Gavin can be pretty cranky
18:34 * scripty btw
18:34 sebersole develop a OSS project for 12+ years and see where you are ;)
18:34 Quest by box entity can have more boxes in it and more tasks.  putting  class Boxes {        @OneToMany     (cascade = CascadeType.REMOVE)  private Collection<Boxes> childBoxList = new ArrayList<Boxes>();
18:35 sebersole thats pretty unprecedented in java oss
18:35 Quest sebersole,  why it says. "will note be fremoved in db" for  For remove cascade: If you invoke setOrders(null), the related Order entities will NOT be removed in db automatically.             in      http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18813341/what-is-the-difference-between-cascade-and-orphan-removal-from-db    answer 2
18:35 sebersole only a few projects have been around that long
18:36 tjsnell sebersole:  he was that way 10 years ago
18:38 sebersole yep
18:38 sebersole and that means what though?
18:39 sebersole gavin has not been involved in Hibernate development in over 6 years
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18:40 cem_ hi
18:42 Quest cem_,  hi
18:42 cem_ how to start .exe file?
18:43 Quest with java?
18:43 cem_ in java
18:43 Quest you mean how to convert .jar into .exe?
18:43 tjsnell he got cranky about a TheServerSide.com article 10 years ago. I was sitting next to the editor when he called and I could hear him screaming
18:43 tjsnell Quest:  don't
18:44 cem_ Quest i dont know i have ,exe file i want to start that
18:44 cem_ .exe
18:44 sebersole tjsnell: and again... thats pertinent to hibernate how?
18:45 sebersole again, gavin has not been part of Hibernate development in many many years
18:45 tjsnell in obvious ways
18:45 tjsnell it's a funny story
18:45 tjsnell I know that, you don't need to keep repeating it
18:45 sebersole i said over 6 but iirc its more like 8
18:45 tjsnell I know that too
18:45 sebersole well
18:45 tjsnell how is that pertinent
18:46 sebersole you are the one that keeps talkiong about gavin in reagdrs to a hibernate discussion ;)
18:46 sebersole so you tell me
18:46 tjsnell I'm just talking about gavin
18:46 cem_ Quest: i got it thanks.
18:46 tjsnell the mention of hibernate reminded me of a funny incident
18:46 Quest cem_,  Process process=Runtime.getRuntime().exec("file.exe");
18:46 tjsnell sorry to wad your panties
18:47 sebersole yep and we're cranky lol
18:48 Naros lol when is sebersole not cranky :P
18:48 tjsnell when am I not cranky!?
18:49 tjsnell well in 30 min when I head to the woods and no cell coverage for 2 days!
18:49 * Naros has yet to observe that.
18:49 Naros lol, the joys of not being connected to the outside world :E
18:49 sebersole Naros: i whole-heartedly admit to getting cranky when answering (imo) silly questions
18:49 Naros oh I know :P
18:50 sebersole in fact i think i am super helpful overall
18:50 Naros The #hibernate channel cranks me up sometimes.
18:50 Naros *cracks even
18:50 Quest if the parent is deleted of a child, which annotation makes the child also be deleted?  (short question, had much confussions)
18:50 sebersole not many project leads rountinely hang out on irc and try to help users
18:51 sebersole heck not many oss developers in general do
18:51 Naros Yep and its quite unfortunate but understandable why they don't.
18:51 Quest is it orphanRemoval   or  cascadeType=REVOVE ?
18:52 sebersole Quest: will me saying it for the 6th time in 2 hours finally "answer you"?
18:52 sebersole cascade
18:52 Quest ok. cool. just a sec
18:52 sebersole can we be done now
18:52 sebersole ?
18:53 Quest http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18813341/what-is-the-difference-between-cascade-and-orphan-removal-from-db    answer 2   says "will note be fremoved in db" for  For remove cascade
18:53 Quest thats incorrect. yes^?
18:55 Quest or is it just because of set null vs .remove
18:55 sebersole DING DING DIING DING DING
18:55 Quest :|
18:55 sebersole i'll give you a different example...
18:55 * Naros falls outta his chair.
18:55 Quest ok!
18:56 Quest lol @ Naros
18:56 sebersole I have a Book and a Page...
18:56 Quest k
18:56 tjsnell sebersole:  I'm in #camel on codehaus most of the time
18:57 tjsnell along with several other fellow committers
18:57 * Quest concentrates on the book
18:57 sebersole tjsnell: lots of traffic there i bet l)
18:57 tjsnell nah, pretty quiet
18:57 tjsnell mailing list is busy
18:57 sebersole if I remove a Page from a Book via book.getPages().remove( thePage )...
18:57 Quest tjsnell,  #camel is empty
18:57 sebersole why do you think that would delete the pag?
18:57 tjsnell codehaus
18:57 tjsnell not freenode
18:58 Quest k
18:58 sebersole the page still exists
18:58 sebersole right?
18:58 sebersole physically the paper is still in my hand
18:58 sebersole that page is orhpaned
18:58 sebersole thats the idea of orphaning
18:59 sebersole now... in terms of data modeling...
18:59 sebersole removing that page from the book probably should delete the page
18:59 sebersole thats where orphanRemoval comes into play
19:00 sebersole if you delete the Book, you probably want all the Pages to be deleted as well
19:00 sebersole that's cascading removal
19:00 Quest got much ..
19:00 Quest sebersole,      List pageList = book.getPages();         Page page = new Page();     page =   PageList[0];       page.remove();         the page will be removed / deleted from db.       isnt that correct?
19:01 sebersole i have zero idea what that means
19:01 Quest sorry. thats entityManager.remove(page)
19:01 sebersole page.remove();  ?
19:01 sebersole ok
19:01 Quest :)
19:01 sebersole of course
19:01 sebersole you asked the EM to remove it
19:02 sebersole and before you ask about fk constraints...
19:02 sebersole you are conveniently forgetting other parts of the jpa spec
19:02 sebersole like managing both sides of a relationship
19:02 Quest ya. ok
19:02 Quest but what is  book.getPages().remove( thePage )...          vs       entityManager.remove(page)
19:03 sebersole which here means calling book.getPages().remove(...)
19:03 Quest i mean what is  book.getPages().remove( thePage )..
19:03 sebersole are you seriously asking me that?
19:04 Quest yes
19:04 Quest book.getPages() will get a list of pages.
19:04 Quest never saw .remove( thePage )..
19:06 Quest ok. I will start at the point which i understood and agreed most on. sebersole> if you delete the Book, you probably want all the Pages to be deleted as well <sebersole> that's cascading removal           but according to stackof.com   if book is set to null, the pages are NOT deleted. true?
19:08 Quest sebersole,  and you said i should call Session.delete if cascade is set correct
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21:04 balazare sfisque: thanks for the tips earlier - have a good weekend
21:16 sfisque npnp, be well bala
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