| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
|
whartung |
I used to take the bus to my FIRST EVER (outside of college) paying computer gig -- I baby sat a high school lab for a month one summer. |
| 00:00 |
|
whartung |
I had to catch the bus at 5:30 am to get there by 8 |
| 00:01 |
|
whartung |
and there was a walk at the end as well |
| 00:02 |
|
pdurbin |
what kind of computers in the lab? |
| 00:03 |
|
whartung |
Apple ]['s |
| 00:03 |
|
pdurbin |
carmen sandiego |
| 00:03 |
|
whartung |
yea |
| 00:04 |
|
pdurbin |
that game where you're just a hat with feet |
| 00:04 |
|
whartung |
Not that I actually knew anything about the Apple ][ mind, but that didn't seem to matter much. The lab was pretty quiet as I recall. |
| 00:04 |
|
whartung |
I played about with Shape Tables |
| 00:05 |
|
pdurbin |
javaeebot: lucky shape tables |
| 00:05 |
|
javaeebot |
pdurbin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_table |
| 00:05 |
|
whartung |
yea, them |
| 00:07 |
|
whartung |
Can't complain, got $6.25/hr! |
| 00:08 |
|
pdurbin |
:) |
| 00:08 |
|
whartung |
clean $1000 bucks all said and done. Bought my Atari 800 with that |
| 00:26 |
|
|
Naros joined ##javaee |
| 00:29 |
|
pdurbin |
sfisque: so your Facebook workalike, the GUI will be built on an REST API? Or not? |
| 00:35 |
|
bonq |
I feel said i dont know REST |
| 00:35 |
|
tjsnell |
raml.org |
| 00:38 |
|
bonq |
I will add it to my pile |
| 00:40 |
|
pdurbin |
huh. RAML - RESTful API modeling language - http://raml.org |
| 00:41 |
|
|
bonq left ##javaee |
| 00:43 |
|
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bonq joined ##javaee |
| 00:43 |
|
bonq |
My XChat is not working :( |
| 00:45 |
|
bonq |
I feel this channel is quite Professional |
| 00:50 |
|
cem_ |
pdurbin: Which version of postgres your using ? |
| 00:53 |
|
tjsnell |
pdurbin: much better than wadl |
| 00:53 |
|
pdurbin |
cem_: 7.2 I think |
| 00:54 |
|
pdurbin |
wait, 9.2 |
| 00:54 |
|
cem_ |
I use 9.2 i mean learning |
| 00:54 |
|
pdurbin |
whatever came from `brew install` |
| 00:54 |
|
cem_ |
But 9.3 has better support |
| 00:54 |
|
pdurbin |
9.3 has native JSON? |
| 00:55 |
|
cem_ |
yeaaaaaaa |
| 00:55 |
|
cem_ |
:( |
| 00:58 |
|
cem_ |
brb |
| 00:58 |
|
|
cem_ left ##javaee |
| 01:00 |
|
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com joined ##javaee |
| 01:00 |
|
* com |
i am back |
| 01:28 |
|
com |
yep install IRC client bye bye freenode |
| 01:28 |
|
com |
installed) |
| 01:30 |
|
|
scripty joined ##javaee |
| 03:58 |
|
sfisque |
pdurbin probably not, but the S2S will probably be available via REST as well as JMS and SOAP |
| 04:40 |
|
sfisque |
man why is it so painfully obvious when spring devs try to be jee devs. i just noticed some DAO objects getting checked into svn. /sigh |
| 04:47 |
|
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| 05:50 |
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| 05:50 |
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| 06:11 |
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| 07:16 |
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| 08:03 |
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| 08:46 |
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sess joined ##javaee |
| 10:03 |
|
pdurbin |
dunno what S2S means |
| 12:49 |
|
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| 12:49 |
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| 13:16 |
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| 13:32 |
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Naros joined ##javaee |
| 14:00 |
|
acuzio |
sfisque: whats wrong checking DAO into SVN |
| 14:09 |
|
sfisque |
pdurbin (s2s server to server) |
| 14:09 |
|
sfisque |
acuzio : EE has the entitymanager and jpa, which in effect IS the dao layer. it's redundant and promotes inner platform effect anti pattern |
| 14:10 |
|
acuzio |
sfisque: What ? i know it has the EM and JPA - whats this inner platform effect anti pattern |
| 14:11 |
|
Naros |
The anti-pattern is wrapping JPA and the EM with a DAO layer. |
| 14:11 |
|
Naros |
You're applying a wrapper around a wrapper which provides little to no benefit in many cases. |
| 14:11 |
|
acuzio |
i dont use either btw - but i think i understand what he means |
| 14:12 |
|
pdurbin |
sfisque: ok. thanks |
| 14:12 |
|
* sfisque |
nods with naros |
| 14:12 |
|
Naros |
There is a long standing debate on the DAO pattern. Some people still use it, even with JPA. |
| 14:13 |
|
Naros |
We do here only because of legacy code. And what generally happens is the app-tier calls into the service which doesn't do much except delegate the method call to the DAO which uses JPA |
| 14:13 |
|
sfisque |
aye, i can see "some cases" where it is helpful (like coalescing multiple PersistenceContexts, coalescing multiple datasources (JNDI/JPA/CORBA/etc.) |
| 14:13 |
|
sfisque |
but in general, it's redundant in a "clean" EE app |
| 14:15 |
|
Naros |
But in the EE world, is there still separation between lets say business code and the implementation that interacts with JPA/EM? |
| 14:16 |
|
Naros |
One usually likes to have some separation of lets say application-specific code, business-logic code, and data-layer code |
| 14:19 |
|
sfisque |
data layer code is already abstracted away == JPA. why abstract it further? |
| 14:20 |
|
sfisque |
i see no gain, other than in specific cases wehre you need to coalesce different mechs to make them look uniform |
| 14:21 |
|
sfisque |
but anyway, i have to packup and head into office. we can banter further later on. code strong! |
| 15:01 |
|
acuzio |
Separation of layers is over-rated |
| 15:02 |
|
Naros |
hah, i disagree. SoC enables long-term maintainability of the codebase. |
| 15:02 |
|
Naros |
Just like decomposition makes maintenance easier too. |
| 15:03 |
|
acuzio |
I wrote a 600+ line class containing the Datasource, the DAO, DAOImpl, XML parser of the data and "data munging" back into XML for external consumption - all started via Main and taking a Spring service |
| 15:03 |
|
acuzio |
Its been there since 2007 , works perfectly |
| 15:03 |
|
Naros |
I never said it won't work :P |
| 15:03 |
|
Naros |
I am just saying on a large scale project with many developers, SoC and decomposition are highly recommended. |
| 15:04 |
|
acuzio |
maintainence , separation of concerns, decomposition etc are all techniques for keeping idiots in their jobs |
| 15:04 |
|
tjsnell |
good thing you never had to maintain it |
| 15:04 |
|
Naros |
lol ok choose to live in your fantasy. |
| 15:05 |
|
acuzio |
tjsnell: choose your weapon |
| 15:06 |
|
acuzio |
fucking hell - ., |
| 15:06 |
|
acuzio |
i forgot you are op here now arent you |
| 15:06 |
|
acuzio |
Naros is ok - tjsnell is trouble |
| 15:07 |
|
* Naros |
grins at tjsnell. |
| 15:07 |
|
acuzio |
Naros: we barely tolerate him - dont fraternize with him |
| 15:09 |
|
acuzio |
But in all seriousness where have you seen Maintainence programmers actually do anything other than "parse log" , "error found" - hack or try and get approval to rewrite shit |
| 15:09 |
|
Naros |
I do it everyday. |
| 15:09 |
|
acuzio |
The rewriting never happens so either the bug remains or the process is discontinued |
| 15:09 |
|
acuzio |
Naros: do what everyday |
| 15:10 |
|
Naros |
One legacy application I'm working on right now is being rewritten partially from scratch because poor code practices were leveraged. |
| 15:10 |
|
Naros |
it main it impossible to add new functionality without going deep into the core of the application and changing stuff that was going to cost more than just to start over. |
| 15:11 |
|
Naros |
had things been decomposed and SoC/SRP been applied, the changes would have been minimal effort. |
| 15:11 |
|
acuzio |
Naros: it _always_ costs more to change stuff ., always |
| 15:11 |
|
Naros |
That isn't true. |
| 15:11 |
|
acuzio |
Unless you are talking mickey-mouse changes , it is truy |
| 15:11 |
|
acuzio |
true even |
| 15:11 |
|
Naros |
Well written code can be tweaked and changed for fractions on the dolloar |
| 15:12 |
|
acuzio |
Naros: the definition of well written code changes from person to person - every single dev has his own opinion of "well Written" |
| 15:13 |
|
Naros |
I'm not talking about personal preferences, I'm talking about using proper design patterns and coding practices. |
| 15:13 |
|
Naros |
These exist regardless of the language |
| 15:13 |
|
Naros |
And should be things a developer knows regardless of their expertise levels. |
| 15:14 |
|
acuzio |
Naros: Again - ., "proper" design pattterns are a matter of preference ., you should know this by now |
| 15:14 |
|
acuzio |
Idiomatic usage of the language - yes thats a thing |
| 15:14 |
|
acuzio |
but "proper" design practices - no thats not a thing - |
| 15:15 |
|
Naros |
That's your opinion, but corporate experience has shown me quite the opposite. |
| 15:15 |
|
acuzio |
Do you think i got my experience in the "voluntary" sector |
| 15:16 |
|
Naros |
No, but I question whether you've truly worked on enterprise scale software. |
| 15:16 |
|
acuzio |
Define Enterprise scale |
| 15:18 |
|
Naros |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_software |
| 15:18 |
|
acuzio |
dude - tell me what you define as enterprise software - i know how to google ., |
| 15:18 |
|
acuzio |
tell me a system where you have worked on "Enterprise Software" |
| 15:18 |
|
Naros |
precisely what I linked to you "dude" |
| 15:19 |
|
Naros |
I have worked on both SAP and Oracle, dude. |
| 15:19 |
|
Naros |
Hence why I'm in the ERP sector. |
| 15:20 |
|
acuzio |
ah the penny drops |
| 15:20 |
|
Naros |
Monstrous modules which interact with one another in a common platform to provide a single suite of functions for various business and industry specific solutions. |
| 15:20 |
|
acuzio |
the worst possible shite you can find - ORACLE and SAP ., |
| 15:21 |
|
Naros |
Yah they're so bad that the worlds top companies use them. |
| 15:21 |
|
acuzio |
I did my internship in SF on Oracle when they were moving to their "E-Business Suite" - ,. so yes i know the monstrosities you are talking about |
| 15:22 |
|
Naros |
Ah; the transition from 11.03 to 11i IIRC |
| 15:22 |
|
acuzio |
And yes the "top companies" use them - and no you wouldnt know good software if it hit you on the head , |
| 15:22 |
|
acuzio |
Naros: No the transition from Forms 4.5 , Reports 2.x to Java based 10i |
| 15:23 |
|
Naros |
ah; didn't get a chance to experience that thankfully. |
| 15:24 |
|
acuzio |
And i wassnt writing PL/SQL procedures to "leverage" Oracle E-Business Suite - i was helping write the fucking suite ., did it for 18 months got fast-tracked to Sales and Customer Management , left pronto - thats not software., thats garbage and no just cause "top companies" use it does not make it good |
| 15:25 |
|
acuzio |
Enterprise Software is not a "good" term - its an insult from where i come from |
| 15:25 |
|
acuzio |
And with that - lets drop this chat - i come to this channel to have fun |
| 15:26 |
|
Naros |
Perhaps that is a good idea since you seem to interpret one's words with your own ad lib opinions :). |
| 16:09 |
|
acuzio |
I mean clearly :-) |
| 16:09 |
|
acuzio |
In my defense i am running on 3 hours of sleep - and i am being dragged back and forth into 5 different areas - |
| 17:39 |
|
|
scripty joined ##javaee |
| 17:40 |
|
scripty |
Howdy |
| 17:40 |
|
scripty |
Guys |
| 17:40 |
|
Naros |
hello |
| 17:40 |
|
scripty |
<3 javaee |
| 17:41 |
|
scripty |
man pages are not found err |
| 18:04 |
|
scripty |
When to use LinkedList ? |
| 18:05 |
|
scripty |
Do we need LinkedList at all ? |
| 18:08 |
|
Naros |
It depends on what you're trying to do with the list. |
| 18:08 |
|
Naros |
LinkedList provides quick insertion/removal time but sequential access to elements. |
| 18:09 |
|
Naros |
Whereas ArrayList provides fast random access of any element using constant time, but the cost of insertion/removal except from the end of the list has a cost. |
| 18:10 |
|
Naros |
Generally, containers in any language have pros/cons which make a specific implementation good for specific cases and horrible for others. |
| 18:10 |
|
Naros |
Up to you the developer to pick the right one for the job. |
| 18:11 |
|
Naros |
reminds me of the debate between list<> and vector<> in c++ :P |
| 18:12 |
|
Naros |
here's a nice write-up on SO http://stackoverflow.com/questions/322715/when-to-use-linkedlist-over-arraylist |
| 18:18 |
|
scripty |
Naros i did my homework but i feel AL is quite good insertion in java |
| 18:19 |
|
Naros |
ArrayList<> is great in java if you're using add(E element) |
| 18:20 |
|
Naros |
this is adding to the end of the array, so the only time you exhibit the cost is when the memory must be copied into a larger area due to capacity growth. |
| 18:20 |
|
Naros |
but if you used for example add(0, E element) to add to the start of the array each time, you're going to have much worse performance. |
| 18:21 |
|
Naros |
but in either case, when you use add on a LinkedList, there is no memory copying done |
| 18:21 |
|
Naros |
it's O(1) |
| 18:21 |
|
Naros |
most likely iteration is the key factor here |
| 18:22 |
|
scripty |
but are you forgetting to for LinkedList the search is O(n) |
| 18:22 |
|
Naros |
Precisely. |
| 18:22 |
|
Naros |
That's why i said, it depends on implementation. |
| 18:22 |
|
Naros |
there are cases where you want extremely fast insertion/removal without memory copy allocations but where you rarely iterate over the collection. |
| 18:22 |
|
Naros |
in that case, the linked list is ideal |
| 18:23 |
|
scripty |
I cant find that use case :P |
| 18:23 |
|
Naros |
and where sequential iteration is always used. |
| 18:23 |
|
scripty |
Removal and goes to backend always |
| 18:23 |
|
Naros |
I have a LinkedList<Service> |
| 18:23 |
|
Naros |
each loop i iterate every search from start to finish |
| 18:23 |
|
Naros |
then linked list is ideal here. |
| 18:23 |
|
Naros |
every service i meant |
| 18:24 |
|
scripty |
why you use iteration on LinkedList |
| 18:24 |
|
scripty |
its again O(n) |
| 18:24 |
|
Naros |
for(Service service : serviceList) { service.Update(); } |
| 18:24 |
|
Naros |
I know i am going to touch every service anyhow is why |
| 18:24 |
|
scripty |
i wont use LinkedList for that |
| 18:25 |
|
Naros |
When I want random access to a specific object, ArrayList<> wins hands down. |
| 18:25 |
|
Naros |
But because it keeps things in contiguous memory, I take an overhead cost on insertion/removal. |
| 18:26 |
|
Naros |
In the end, it's all about optimization and nothing more really |
| 18:26 |
|
Naros |
to the user of the api, they look identical. |
| 18:26 |
|
tjsnell |
I've done some things that were crazy sensitive timing wise and in years of programming what list was used has never mattered |
| 18:26 |
|
Naros |
tjsnell: in java perhaps |
| 18:26 |
|
tjsnell |
this is ##javaee |
| 18:27 |
|
Naros |
yah yah |
| 18:27 |
|
Naros |
But I do think the same premise of using the right container for the job applies regardless of language. |
| 18:30 |
|
tjsnell |
my point is in 90% of the cases it doesn't matter |
| 18:30 |
|
tjsnell |
no matter the language |
| 18:31 |
|
tjsnell |
so I don't worry about it unless profiling says I should |
| 18:31 |
|
scripty |
Naros what do you mean right container regard the language |
| 18:31 |
|
Naros |
tjsnell: agreed, profile first naturally. but i know from experience in c++, using list<> versus vector<> has considerable differences :P |
| 18:32 |
|
Naros |
I've just taken that same philosophy and applied it to Java myself |
| 18:33 |
|
Naros |
scripty: point is some languages, when you understand what they do under the hood, you begin to see the relevance of using containerA versus containerB depending on what you're going to be doing with the data. |
| 18:33 |
|
Naros |
But tjsnell is correct that its best to use whatever container you prefer, profile, and if its a bottleneck then optimzie. |
| 18:34 |
|
scripty |
Well i never seen the source code of container i looks French |
| 18:34 |
|
scripty |
it* |
| 18:35 |
|
Naros |
Just use ArrayList<> if you prefer and optimize it to something else laters. |
| 18:35 |
|
scripty |
hmmm |
| 18:36 |
|
Naros |
As I said earlier, most of my views on "right container for the job" stem from programming in native C++. |
| 19:07 |
|
sess |
from my experience, the code has very little effect on performance in 95% of applications |
| 19:07 |
|
sess |
bottlenecks are external systems |
| 19:09 |
|
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| 19:09 |
|
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| 19:10 |
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| 20:00 |
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| 20:41 |
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| 22:03 |
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| 22:08 |
|
whartung |
sfisque: do much JPQL in JPA? |
| 22:11 |
|
sfisque |
negative, we use either criteria or in specific cases native queries |
| 22:11 |
|
whartung |
yea k |
| 22:11 |
|
whartung |
curious if there's a way to bind a result to a bean that's not an entity. |
| 22:11 |
|
whartung |
vs just get a list of object[] |
| 22:12 |
|
sfisque |
hrm. i know you can "construct()" in criteria queries to fetch into a pojo or an entity (in which case you get a detached entity) |
| 22:12 |
|
sfisque |
wrt to jpql, not sure, but there "might" be a similar mech |
| 22:13 |
|
* sfisque |
peruses the javadoc |
| 22:13 |
|
semiosis |
kotten: whats up with the DCC? i dont want that |
| 22:13 |
|
whartung |
I didn't see anything glaring in Query |
| 22:16 |
|
sfisque |
<T> TypedQuery<T> createQuery |
| 22:16 |
|
sfisque |
though it might bomb if T isnt an entity |
| 22:16 |
|
sfisque |
but worth a try |
| 22:18 |
|
whartung |
yea, it probably would |
| 22:19 |
|
whartung |
but I Can try it |
| 22:19 |
|
sfisque |
actually looks like it might work… SO link — http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15413434/typedquery-instead-of-normal-query-in-jpa |
| 22:19 |
|
kotten |
semiosis_DCC? |
| 22:20 |
|
kotten |
semiosis:DCC? |
| 22:20 |
|
whartung |
I think the TypedQuery is separate from the SELECT NEW part |
| 22:23 |
|
Naros |
whartung: i know you can do that in hibernate for sure using a select new pojoClass() |
| 22:23 |
|
Naros |
i would presume jpa has something too |
| 22:24 |
|
SoniEx2 |
I can't override private fields can I? |
| 22:25 |
|
pdurbin |
kotten: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Client-to-Client I guess. semiosis, weechat must filter it all out |
| 22:27 |
|
kotten |
pdurbin:okay I see what i did now. thanks |
| 22:32 |
|
SoniEx2 |
ok question: if I have class A, it has a public static method getStuff used by another method doStuff, then I make class B extends A, and I override the getStuff, then I make an instance of B and call the doStuff method, would it call A's or B's getStuff? |
| 22:34 |
|
pdurbin |
B's, I would think. Try it |
| 22:34 |
|
sfisque |
if you want to see something REALLY WONKY. try this (pdurbin should remember) |
| 22:35 |
|
SoniEx2 |
oh wait... you can't override static methods? |
| 22:35 |
|
SoniEx2 |
sad :( |
| 22:37 |
|
sfisque |
class A{ private int x = 0 ; public int getX(){ return x } } class B extends A{ private in X = −1; } |
| 22:39 |
|
sfisque |
static methods arent called virtually (theyr'e tied to the class def) so how could you override them? |
| 22:39 |
|
pdurbin |
Java needs a REPL |
| 22:39 |
|
sfisque |
REPL? |
| 22:39 |
|
pdurbin |
javaeebot: lucky REPL |
| 22:39 |
|
javaeebot |
pdurbin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Read%E2%80%93eval%E2%80%93print_loop |
| 22:39 |
|
pdurbin |
that |
| 22:40 |
|
sfisque |
MRJ had one in the old days. (classic macos jvm). java diddler |
| 22:40 |
|
sfisque |
you could type in fragments and execute them |
| 22:40 |
|
SoniEx2 |
sfisque: ok lets say you have a Lua table, and you do tons of OOP stuff in it |
| 22:40 |
|
sfisque |
you "could" call the com.sun.javac methods witha fragment that is wrapped in a static void main() block for you're own poor mans version |
| 22:41 |
|
pdurbin |
nice. some guy at javaone had a plugin for eclipse that would insert output long side his scala code as comments |
| 22:41 |
|
SoniEx2 |
you would be able to override static methods on that thing |
| 22:41 |
|
SoniEx2 |
well, "methods" |
| 22:41 |
|
sfisque |
LUA != java |
| 22:41 |
|
SoniEx2 |
because Lua has functions and meta-functions |
| 22:42 |
|
sfisque |
plus lua is also interpreted, so everythying is virtual |
| 22:42 |
|
SoniEx2 |
well true |
| 22:42 |
|
sfisque |
just like perl |
| 22:42 |
|
sfisque |
perl code can self modify while running |
| 22:42 |
|
sfisque |
scary stuff |
| 22:42 |
|
SoniEx2 |
... wait |
| 22:42 |
|
SoniEx2 |
perl can run GLaDOS? |
| 22:42 |
|
SoniEx2 |
or skynet? |
| 22:42 |
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pdurbin |
oh, I chatted with Larry Wall last night: http://irclog.greptilian.com/sourcefu/2013-10-17 |
| 22:43 |
|
* sfisque |
bows because he is not worthy |
| 22:43 |
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pdurbin |
javaeebot: lucky glados |
| 22:43 |
|
SoniEx2 |
sfisque: you're not a he... (unless you're not talking about you...) |
| 22:43 |
|
javaeebot |
pdurbin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLaDOS |
| 22:44 |
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sfisque |
oh soniex2, we can save that for ##genderqueer :P |
| 22:44 |
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SoniEx2 |
pdurbin: also if you're going to google skynet, use this instead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator) |
| 22:44 |
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sfisque |
whartung did that method do what we hoped it would? |
| 22:47 |
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SoniEx2 |
anyway |
| 22:47 |
|
SoniEx2 |
idk if I'm doing this right I just know I have a lot of TODOs here: http://imgur.com/4Lefh4a |
| 22:49 |
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SoniEx2 |
also yep it has gender |
| 22:49 |
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whartung |
I haven't tried it yet sfisque |
| 22:49 |
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SoniEx2 |
(not the emulated chip, the game) |
| 22:50 |
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sfisque |
kk |
| 23:08 |
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scripty joined ##javaee |
| 23:11 |
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scripty |
how to get interest in programming ? |
| 23:15 |
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SoniEx2 |
scripty: play a game you like, then see what you would like to change, then see if you can mod it, then learn and code! |
| 23:16 |
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scripty |
SoniEx2 thats a very good Idea |
| 23:17 |
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whartung |
Yup, writing games is a great way. Typing in games from magazines was a common pastime back in my day. |
| 23:17 |
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sfisque |
to learn from scratch, pick a simple problem, say, performing a bubble sort. write a program that bubble sorts 100 numbers |
| 23:18 |
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sfisque |
that should give you the bare essentials to then move on to bigger fish |
| 23:18 |
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whartung |
nah, too boring. You need to be interested in the outcome, less than the process. |
| 23:18 |
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SoniEx2 |
yep like that |
| 23:18 |
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whartung |
once you get your card game done, or you simple shooter working, then you can worry about sorts :) |
| 23:19 |
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sfisque |
aye, but tripping over syntax while trying to do something potentially difficult could be demotivating |
| 23:19 |
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whartung |
one of my first machine language programs was a space invaders clone |
| 23:19 |
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SoniEx2 |
one of my first programs was a shitty minecraft mod that didn't work because I didn't know java :3 |
| 23:19 |
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whartung |
I wrote the thing, and I hit the right ad left arrow keys. The base would go to the left margin or the right margin, but that was it. |
| 23:19 |
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whartung |
"Da Fuq!" I exclaimed |
| 23:20 |
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whartung |
but, it was working - it was just going too fast :) |
| 23:20 |
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whartung |
then I gave up and wrote it in basic |
| 23:20 |
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sfisque |
my first game was a "guess the random number" program in ti-basic |
| 23:20 |
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whartung |
boy was it terrible |
| 23:20 |
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whartung |
I couldn't figure out how to identify the aliens I was hitting |
| 23:20 |
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SoniEx2 |
actually wait |
| 23:20 |
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SoniEx2 |
one of my first REAL programs was a shitty minecraft mod that didn't work because I didn't know java :3 |
| 23:21 |
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whartung |
so each alien had a different character in the middle of it. When my missile hit, I would look around for the "thing that looked like the alien id" |
| 23:21 |
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SoniEx2 |
my first program was a shitty Javascript clone of a real program |
| 23:21 |
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whartung |
Writing crap like that is what makes you better :) |
| 23:22 |
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sfisque |
aye. but i will admit that my dev skills took off after learning fortran and pascal in school and most of what we did "in class" was sorting and linked lists. what i did at home went beyond that, but doing that rudimentary stuff cleared the way for the more complex things |
| 23:23 |
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whartung |
well, the best part of fortran and pascal, for me, is they show you the "same stuff" in different languages. making the concepts fall out from the syntax. |
| 23:23 |
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whartung |
moving from a Commodore Pet to a CDC Cyber 730 was eye opening as well |
| 23:23 |
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SoniEx2 |
my first program was a javascript clone of this: http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_1_-_Text_Code_Generator |
| 23:24 |
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whartung |
I tried to learn fortran on my own, but couldn't grok the channel numbers for I/O on my Dads TRS 80 |
| 23:24 |
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whartung |
I had no idea what they were, or what they represented |
| 23:24 |
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whartung |
made a lot more sense on the Cyber :) |
| 23:25 |
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* whartung |
grateful never had to work with Fortan IV, but started with Fortran 77 |
| 23:25 |
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whartung |
Hollertih.../shiver |
| 23:26 |
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* scripty |
you guys worked with Pascal , Fortron COOOOOOOLLLLL |
| 23:26 |
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whartung |
Turbo Pascal was AWESOME |
| 23:28 |
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sfisque |
yeah. i liked turbo C++ (my first OO environment) |
| 23:28 |
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sfisque |
borland made good tools for the day |
| 23:28 |
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sfisque |
i also did raw machine code on apple IIe because i couldnt find a assembler, so just call −151 and start typing op codes into addresses |
| 23:29 |
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whartung |
:) |
| 23:29 |
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whartung |
I typed in an Assembler in BASIC for the Atari |
| 23:29 |
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whartung |
but eventually bought MAC/65, with was Very nice |
| 23:29 |
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sfisque |
omg, the atari 2600 one with the thumboards? |
| 23:29 |
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sfisque |
i had that |
| 23:30 |
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sfisque |
i BEGGED my mom to buy it for me. loved it |
| 23:30 |
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whartung |
OSS made some awesome stuff -- BASIC XL rocked, Action rocked (so fast), MAC/65 was super nice. The C compiler, meh, C compeers and 6502s, they just don't mix |
| 23:30 |
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whartung |
Atari 800 |
| 23:30 |
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sfisque |
oh, you had the "real computer" |
| 23:30 |
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whartung |
yea |
| 23:31 |
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whartung |
with a DISK DRIVE! 80K of raw storage feeding a 19.2K Baud mega pipe of serial connection lol |
| 23:31 |
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SoniEx2 |
join ##javaee for help with java, stay for random talk about coding :D |
| 23:31 |
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sfisque |
come for the help, stay for the old farts talking about dusty old computer stuff :P |
| 23:32 |
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SoniEx2 |
now, write me a NES game in forth: http://integratedredstone.wikispaces.com/65EL02 |
| 23:32 |
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sfisque |
ya know, i've never written any forth. i should have learned it, i even owned a few sparc stations in the day, but never got around to learning forth |
| 23:35 |
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whartung |
I'm a bit of a Forth geek |
| 23:35 |
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sfisque |
ok, convince me to finally learn forth |
| 23:35 |
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whartung |
definitely a different mind set |
| 23:35 |
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sfisque |
:-) |
| 23:36 |
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SoniEx2 |
also someone help me with this: https://github.com/SoniEx2/TheModernClassicGame/blob/master/src/com/github/soniex2/tmcg/ym2612/OutputDac.java#L32 |
| 23:36 |
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SoniEx2 |
sfisque: http://www.eloraam.com/ |
| 23:36 |
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SoniEx2 |
also yes I know it's kind of a dead mod now :/ |
| 23:37 |
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sfisque |
how extensible is minecraft? could someone, conceivably, write a doom emu in minecraft? |
| 23:37 |
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whartung |
isn't already a doom amu? |
| 23:38 |
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whartung |
there's MC add-on with a 6502 simulator running Forth |
| 23:39 |
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SoniEx2 |
mod* not add-on |
| 23:39 |
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SoniEx2 |
and it's more of an emulator... |
| 23:40 |
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SoniEx2 |
and it's a custom 6502 |
| 23:40 |
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whartung |
no, it's a simulator. |
| 23:40 |
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sfisque |
how about a minecraft mod that emulates an apple II on a 386 emulation running windows on a powerpc running macos 9 running on an emulated cray |
| 23:40 |
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SoniEx2 |
wat? |
| 23:40 |
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whartung |
there's a very nice JS Apple //e simulator on the web |
| 23:41 |
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sfisque |
i've seen that one |
| 23:41 |
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whartung |
plays a mean game of load runner |
| 23:41 |
|
sfisque |
i hvae the osX one for playing wizardry :-) |
| 23:41 |
|
whartung |
O.O |
| 23:41 |
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whartung |
oh, don't get me started on playing wizardry |
| 23:41 |
|
whartung |
I'd even be lost forever, or i'd be "my god why did I ever spend any time on this"? |
| 23:42 |
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sfisque |
one of my first pascal "tools" was a program that opened up the character dat file and made modifications. since wizardry was written in pascal, the dat file was straight serializtion |
| 23:42 |
|
* whartung |
reminisces about taking hour long bus lines to the other cal state campus to play wizardry on their apples |
| 23:42 |
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sfisque |
lolz |
| 23:42 |
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whartung |
I've been noodling around do a generic 6502 UCSD port |
| 23:43 |
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whartung |
UCSD P machine |
| 23:44 |
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whartung |
so, that query thing worked. I couldn't use a TypedQuery (perhaps because we use sort of a JPA1/2 franken-lib). But with a normal Query I was able to use the SELECT NEW(…) |
| 23:44 |
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whartung |
but the constructor was icky |
| 23:44 |
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whartung |
it's passing Objects for Dates (well, Time stamps) but that may be because I'm min/maxing them |
| 23:46 |
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sfisque |
since it was straight byte code, you probably could do it as a "natively hosted language on the jvm" |
| 23:46 |
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whartung |
a what? |
| 23:46 |
|
whartung |
it's a really weird byte code |
| 23:46 |
|
whartung |
I mean, kinda weird |
| 23:47 |
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sfisque |
i dont know enough low level stuff about p-code, but i'm guessing its similar in "construct" to what the jvm does |
| 23:47 |
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sfisque |
natively hosted, like clojure or jython |
| 23:49 |
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whartung |
well it's really pretty basic, the weirdness is in the segment system that is uses, which a neat feature actually. It allows pascal to work with overlays (effectively) |
| 23:49 |
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whartung |
half of the instructions push constants on the stack lol |
| 23:49 |
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whartung |
0-127 :) |
| 23:50 |
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whartung |
but if I can get it running, then shazam -- instance pascal compiler and runtime... |
| 23:50 |
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sfisque |
yah, the apple ii needed that because the MMU only actively addressed 64k, you had to do segment swapping to map out larger memory footprints |
| 23:50 |
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whartung |
for a generic 6502 system (vs, say, an apple) |
| 23:50 |
|
whartung |
right |
| 23:51 |
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sfisque |
iirc wasnt' it 16k pages or was it 8k pages? |
| 23:51 |
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whartung |
I don't remeber |
| 23:51 |
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sfisque |
aye. i think i reformatted those sectors a while back |
| 23:51 |
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sfisque |
:P |
| 23:56 |
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sfisque |
whartung there is a jvm version of forth - myForth |
| 23:56 |
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whartung |
yea no surprise |
| 23:58 |
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whartung |
lol -- off to a meeting |
| 23:58 |
|
whartung |
http://enid.craigslist.org/cto/4119280944.html%3C/div%3E |
| 23:58 |
|
sfisque |
flagged |
