| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 11:24 |
|
|
mr_lou joined ##friendlyjava |
| 11:31 |
|
mr_lou |
Scenario.... I make a Java application. I pack it with its own JVM. |
| 11:31 |
|
mr_lou |
Question: How does that work exactly? How does my app use the JVM? Does the JVM need to be spawned as its own process? |
| 11:34 |
|
aditsu |
mr_lou: it probably launches your application just like any java application; the jvm process is your application process |
| 11:35 |
|
mr_lou |
What if it's not a Java application, but rather a Java library? |
| 11:35 |
|
aditsu |
then how does your application use java? jni or something? I don't know exactly how that works |
| 11:36 |
|
mr_lou |
More specifically, the idea is to embed a JVM with media players like VLC and Kodi, in order to provide Blu-ray playback with full Java menus - on systems that doesn't have a JVM. |
| 11:37 |
|
aditsu |
I'm not sure how that would work.. aren't there blu-ray players that can support all the features? |
| 11:37 |
|
mr_lou |
And then someone replies this: |
| 11:37 |
|
mr_lou |
https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=316378&pid=2723539 |
| 11:37 |
|
mr_lou |
And I have no clue. |
| 11:39 |
|
mr_lou |
aditsu, VLC added Blu-ray playback support with Java menus a while back, and the new Kodi v18 that's coming out in the near future will offer this too. Both VLC and Kodi is available on a ton of different platforms - but "full Java menus" in Blu-rays are obviously only supported IF a JVM is installed on the system it's running on. |
| 11:40 |
|
mr_lou |
For Android that's a problem, because there's no JVM for that. There is, however, phoneME - a JVM that can run MIDlets and CDC based apps on Android. And it should be enough to run BD-J too. |
| 11:40 |
|
aditsu |
how does vlc support java menus without a jvm? |
| 11:41 |
|
mr_lou |
aditsu, It doesn't. Currently both Kodi and VLC relies on a JVM being installed on the platform. |
| 11:41 |
|
mr_lou |
And that's kinda silly, considering that such an embedded JVM (for BD-J) would only be 1-2 mb. |
| 11:42 |
|
aditsu |
well, then you could make the installer also install a jvm, then vlc will use it |
| 11:43 |
|
mr_lou |
Do you know Snap? |
| 11:43 |
|
mr_lou |
Same deal. |
| 11:43 |
|
aditsu |
I know the band :) |
| 11:43 |
|
mr_lou |
Snap is a package manager or sorts, for Linux. |
| 11:43 |
|
mr_lou |
sudo apt-get install snap |
| 11:43 |
|
mr_lou |
snap install skype |
| 11:43 |
|
mr_lou |
snap run skype |
| 11:43 |
|
aditsu |
haven't heard of that |
| 11:43 |
|
mr_lou |
Runs in its own sandbox. |
| 11:44 |
|
mr_lou |
Allows you to install "packages" apps, like Skype, VLC, whatever - and they won't suddenly stop working because of new libs etc. |
| 11:44 |
|
mr_lou |
VLC 3.0.1 is on Snap - but it doesn't support Blu-ray Java menus - because there's no JVM in Snap. |
| 11:45 |
|
mr_lou |
So either someone must make a Snap of a JVM - or else VLC could embed a JVM. |
| 11:45 |
|
mr_lou |
And considered that a JVM would only take up a few megs, it makes no sense (to me) NOT to embed a JVM. |
| 11:45 |
|
mr_lou |
Then we also get rid of the whole "32 bit JVM and 64 bit VLC" problem. |
| 11:46 |
|
aditsu |
Oracle's jvm is pretty big, not sure how you get a small one like that |
| 11:46 |
|
aditsu |
same with icedtea |
| 11:46 |
|
mr_lou |
Because BD-J was invented in 2001. First Blu-ray player was released 2003. Java was small back then. BD-J is just a subset of Java 1.3 + some additional API's. |
| 11:47 |
|
mr_lou |
Take phoneME for Android. It's only 1,4 mb, and it runs MIDP, CLDC and CDC apps. |
| 11:47 |
|
pdurbin |
As of Java 9 you can make a smaller JVM, I believe. Thanks to Jigsaw. |
| 11:48 |
|
aditsu |
if you use an old jvm, it will likely have some security issues |
| 11:48 |
|
mr_lou |
But it's embedded. No other apps will use it anyway. |
| 11:48 |
|
mr_lou |
Only the media player. |
| 11:49 |
|
aditsu |
a malicious blu-ray could potentially gain access to the machine :p |
| 11:49 |
|
mr_lou |
:-| |
| 11:49 |
|
mr_lou |
Right.... |
| 12:40 |
|
mr_lou |
pdurbin, As far as I know, Java 9 doesn't go far enough back. |
| 12:40 |
|
mr_lou |
E.g. I can't compile my Blu-ray project with Java, because I need --source 1.3 and --target 1.3, and Java 9 doesn't offer that anymore. |
| 12:46 |
|
pdurbin |
Huh. I'd be concerned about security vulnerabilities in ancient versions of Java. |
| 12:47 |
|
mr_lou |
Well Java 9 doesn't offer what I need. |
| 12:47 |
|
mr_lou |
So I don't have a choice than to use older version. |
| 12:48 |
|
pdurbin |
because you're using BD-J? |
| 12:49 |
|
mr_lou |
So compile a BD-J Xlet, you need --target 1.3 |
| 12:49 |
|
mr_lou |
*Tp |
| 12:49 |
|
mr_lou |
*To |
| 12:49 |
|
mr_lou |
Java 9 has excluded that option. |
| 13:25 |
|
pdurbin |
Ok. |
| 13:27 |
|
pdurbin |
mr_lou: forgive me but I'm forgetting how one runs this software you're working on. Is it that I would buy a PC with a Blu-ray player and install your software? I don't think you can even play a Blue-ray on Mac. |
| 13:28 |
|
mr_lou |
pdurbin, 8-bit Memoirs was released in December 2017. You can download it at www.8bitMemoirs.com if you're interested in that kind of project: A diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era. (But don't - I'm working on v1.1 at the moment, so better wait). |
| 13:28 |
|
mr_lou |
It's a Blu-ray project. So you have many options to watch it. |
| 13:29 |
|
mr_lou |
Buy a disc; watch on your hardware player or PlayStation 3 or Xbox One. |
| 13:29 |
|
mr_lou |
Or download ISO, play on your Windows / Mac / Linux with a software player like PowerDVD or VLC, or (soon) Kodi (from version 18). |
| 13:29 |
|
mr_lou |
Or play the ISO on one of the many media boxes / tv boxes / media centers, like Dune HD series or Popcorn Hour or Egreat A10 / A11 etc etc. |
| 13:31 |
|
mr_lou |
pdurbin, Kodi (again from v18) can even play it online. I find that rather awesome. |
| 13:31 |
|
mr_lou |
So no need to download the whole thing. You simply stream it. |
| 13:33 |
|
pdurbin |
I don't have a hardware Blu-ray player but it sounds like buying a disc is the easiest way to watch it. |
| 13:35 |
|
mr_lou |
pdurbin, When Kodi v18 comes out, it'll be simple to watch online. Simply click "Add source", and choose "HTTP" or "WebDav". Then input the URL. |
| 13:35 |
|
pdurbin |
cool |
| 13:35 |
|
mr_lou |
You can do this already now, if you download the nightly build of v18. |
| 13:36 |
|
pdurbin |
doesn't make a link unless you include "http..." so here's that link again: http://www.8bitmemoirs.com (in the IRC log for this channel, I mean) |
| 13:36 |
|
mr_lou |
However, Kodi v18 isn't completed yet. Playback is very buggy at the moment. It crashes here and there (when switching between videos). |
| 13:37 |
|
pdurbin |
I do have a Blu-ray of Star Wars because it came along with the DVD I bought. I haven't felt the need to buy a Blu-ray player yet. |
| 13:38 |
|
mr_lou |
:-) |
| 13:38 |
|
mr_lou |
And no PlayStation 3 or PlayStation 4 or Xbox One either? |
| 13:39 |
|
mr_lou |
I have a ton of Blu-ray players, but that's just because I needed to test my project on different players, to make sure it ran ok. Bought a lot of players for a little as 4 euro in various recycle stores. |
| 13:40 |
|
pdurbin |
I have a GameCube. |
| 13:40 |
|
mr_lou |
I don't think those play Blu-rays. :-) |
| 13:40 |
|
pdurbin |
nope :) |
| 13:40 |
|
mr_lou |
Well, I don't have one of those consoles either. I've borrowed a PS3 from a mate, again just to test the project. |
| 13:41 |
|
mr_lou |
pdurbin, But I've also offered sending USB sticks to those too lazy to download the 23 gb themselves. Software players will play it from USB too. |
| 13:41 |
|
mr_lou |
I think Blu-ray can be played almost anywhere. |
| 13:41 |
|
pdurbin |
If Blu-ray didn't exist, what technology would you use to create a similar experience? |
| 13:42 |
|
mr_lou |
Only phones and tablets are excluded, and I'm honestly fine with that. |
| 13:42 |
|
mr_lou |
The project deserves more attention than that. |
| 13:42 |
|
mr_lou |
I don't know of any other technology that would give me what Blu-ray gives me. http://www.8bitMemoirs.com/why-bluray.html |
| 13:42 |
|
mr_lou |
But if someone finds one, I'd be very curious to hear more. |
| 13:43 |
|
mr_lou |
I'm going for a run while the weather is nice. Be back in about 45-60 minutes or so. :-) |
| 13:43 |
|
mr_lou |
See ya. |
| 13:47 |
|
pdurbin |
wow, this is a very nice explanation |
| 14:37 |
|
mr_lou |
Back |
| 14:37 |
|
mr_lou |
Thanks. :-) |
| 14:39 |
|
mr_lou |
pdurbin, But if you know of any other platform that can deliver (roughly) the same, then I'm very interested to hear about it. |
| 14:40 |
|
aditsu |
well, your 50Hz requirement currently eliminates everything that runs on a computer or mobile device |
| 14:48 |
|
mr_lou |
yes.... |
| 14:48 |
|
mr_lou |
Except in a few cases. Some PC systems can be changed using native code. |
| 14:49 |
|
mr_lou |
Even Java can do that. I just didn't have any luck with it here. |
| 14:51 |
|
aditsu |
it's all about the monitors/screens, I think CRTs were a lot more flexible |
| 14:52 |
|
mr_lou |
yea... |
| 14:52 |
|
mr_lou |
retro ftw. :-> |
| 14:52 |
|
aditsu |
I'm not sure about LCD tvs, do they support 50Hz more commonly than computer monitors? |
| 14:52 |
|
mr_lou |
But I gotta say.... watching those 50 fps videos from Blu-ray is REALLY nice. |
| 14:52 |
|
aditsu |
or LED, whatever flat screen |
| 14:53 |
|
mr_lou |
I'm not sure if it's the TV's, or if it's the graphics cards. |
| 14:53 |
|
mr_lou |
I did a test connecting a Blu-ray player to a LCD monitor, and as far as I remember, it too switched to 50 hz. |
| 14:53 |
|
aditsu |
hmm |
| 14:54 |
|
mr_lou |
(because the video playing on the blu-ray was 50 fps, and this info is sent with the HDMI signal). |
| 14:54 |
|
mr_lou |
And my (very) old Sony TV also gives awesome results. |
| 14:55 |
|
mr_lou |
But only for Blu-ray playback. Not if I put in a USB in the TV, or even in the Blu-ray player. Then the 50 fps video from the USB doesn't change refresh rate. Only Blu-ray makes it happen. |
| 15:28 |
|
mr_lou |
aditsu, I forgot where you're from? I remember thinking you were from the states, but then finding out you weren't. Was it Spain? |
| 15:29 |
|
aditsu |
haha, I'm from Romania, but living in Hong Kong |
| 15:29 |
|
mr_lou |
Ah |
| 15:29 |
|
mr_lou |
Dunno what it was like in China. But in Europe all of our 8-bit computers ran on 50 hz screens. Americans used 60 hz screens. |
| 15:30 |
|
mr_lou |
So American 8-bit computers can display videos on YouTube fine, giving an accurate representation of how it looked. |
| 15:30 |
|
mr_lou |
But YouTube is full of crappy videos showing games from european 8-bit computers. |
| 15:30 |
|
mr_lou |
jerky movement |
| 15:30 |
|
mr_lou |
Particular noticable with scrolltexts and other movement that's supposed to be smooth. |
| 15:31 |
|
aditsu |
I moved long after the PC era started |
| 15:31 |
|
mr_lou |
Did you have any 8-bit computer in your youth? |
| 15:31 |
|
aditsu |
I had a Sinclair Spectrum compatible |
| 15:31 |
|
mr_lou |
It's funny you say you moved to Hong Kong. I've always thought your nick sounded a bit chineese. |
| 15:31 |
|
mr_lou |
Oh nice. :-) |
| 15:32 |
|
mr_lou |
I probably asked you that already? Don't remember though. |
| 15:32 |
|
aditsu |
it's actually more Romanian than Chinese, but I think it sounds a bit Japanese |
| 15:32 |
|
mr_lou |
:-) |
| 15:32 |
|
mr_lou |
Why move to Hong Kong? |
| 15:32 |
|
aditsu |
my wife is from here |
| 15:33 |
|
mr_lou |
Ah |
| 15:33 |
|
mr_lou |
How's life over there then? |
| 15:34 |
|
aditsu |
pretty nice, but homes are small and expensive, and China is gradually taking over :-/ |
| 15:34 |
|
mr_lou |
Define small. |
| 15:35 |
|
mr_lou |
We're 3 people and we have only 70 m² |
| 15:35 |
|
mr_lou |
Can't even afford owning a car. |
| 15:36 |
|
aditsu |
2 bedrooms in my current flat each have about a 2m x 2m floor area, plus some more space in a kind of bay windows which are very common in HK for some reason |
| 15:37 |
|
aditsu |
I guess the total flat size is also about 70 m², and it's quite bigger than average |
| 15:38 |
|
mr_lou |
Any room for a TV in the bedroom? |
| 15:38 |
|
mr_lou |
You should get yourself a Blu-ray player an enjoy this awesome project called 8-bit Memoirs. Maybe you've heard of it. |
| 15:38 |
|
mr_lou |
:-D |
| 15:38 |
|
aditsu |
we don't have a tv; you can make some room depending on how you arrange things |
| 15:39 |
|
mr_lou |
Oh right. I think you told me about that. |
| 15:39 |
|
mr_lou |
We have a TV, but don't really watch TV. We only watch Blu-rays. ;-> |
| 15:39 |
|
aditsu |
anyway, I think this is the only reference I made to my old Spectrum clone here: http://irclog.greptilian.com/friendlyjava/2017-12-07#i_223236 |
| 15:40 |
|
aditsu |
the thing was actually called HC-90 |
| 15:40 |
|
aditsu |
http://www.nightfallcrew.com/25/01/2016/testing-ice-felix-hc-90-zx-spectrum-clone-for-a-friend/ |
| 15:41 |
|
aditsu |
I still remember a couple of games :) |
| 15:42 |
|
aditsu |
and I wrote my first ever programs on it |
| 15:44 |
|
mr_lou |
Very nice. |
| 15:44 |
|
mr_lou |
Looks VERY geeky! :-> |
| 15:46 |
|
aditsu |
wonder if I can find a video of it |
| 15:47 |
|
mr_lou |
Any nostalgic memories? Coded a lot on it? Great memories of you and mates sitting up all night gaming or coding? :-) |
| 15:49 |
|
aditsu |
not too much... I remember copying cassette tapes with games and struggling to load them due to the loss of audio quality :p |
| 15:49 |
|
mr_lou |
hehe |
| 15:49 |
|
mr_lou |
Ah yes..... |
| 15:49 |
|
aditsu |
ah, I remember that I also learned Z80 assembler for it, even knew some machine code by heart |
| 15:49 |
|
mr_lou |
:-| |
| 15:50 |
|
mr_lou |
I could never figure assembler. Not even in newer times. |
| 15:50 |
|
aditsu |
I used to code some smooth scrolling as a demo :p |
| 15:50 |
|
mr_lou |
I understand the basics of it, but will never be able to create anything useful with it. |
| 15:51 |
|
aditsu |
this is supposedly a demo program for the HC 90 features: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R04M5aTIHw |
| 15:53 |
|
aditsu |
lulz, so cheesy :) |
| 15:54 |
|
mr_lou |
:-) |
| 15:54 |
|
mr_lou |
Many different fonts. |
| 15:54 |
|
mr_lou |
The Amstrad CPC didn't have that. |
| 15:54 |
|
aditsu |
I think those are programmed, not included |
| 15:55 |
|
mr_lou |
Must be. But still. Many. |
| 16:00 |
|
aditsu |
mr_lou: check out this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glXcpXHtYTk |
| 16:00 |
|
aditsu |
it's showing the next version, HC-91, but it's quite similar |
| 16:00 |
|
aditsu |
you can see the game loading experience :) |
| 16:01 |
|
aditsu |
(and hear) |
| 16:01 |
|
mr_lou |
Very similar to the Amstrad CPC that I grew up with. |
| 16:01 |
|
mr_lou |
aditsu, So you don't have the HC-90 with you anymore? |
| 16:02 |
|
aditsu |
no, I think we sold it before 2000 |
| 16:03 |
|
mr_lou |
I sold my CPC too. But then regretted it, and bought another one. :-) |
| 16:05 |
|
aditsu |
I used to play this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYp9HPkxZa0 |
| 16:11 |
|
mr_lou |
And here's how Amstrad CPC users experienced that game. :-) |
| 16:11 |
|
mr_lou |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjqm7yll2c0 |
| 16:12 |
|
aditsu |
cool, sounds much better |
| 16:12 |
|
aditsu |
graphics are similar |
| 16:17 |
|
aditsu |
watching some other Spectrum games, I recognize a couple :) |
| 16:18 |
|
aditsu |
Lode Runner, Renegade.. |
| 16:18 |
|
mr_lou |
:-) |
| 16:30 |
|
aditsu |
ooh, Arkanoid |
| 16:31 |
|
mr_lou |
You're getting nostalgic now. |
| 16:32 |
|
mr_lou |
Soon you'll find yourself authoring 8-bit Memoirs Issue #2 :-) |
| 16:32 |
|
aditsu |
no, you will not assimilate me :p |
| 16:35 |
|
aditsu |
jeez, someone made a 5.5hour video of 600 games |
| 16:39 |
|
mr_lou |
hehe |
| 17:15 |
|
mr_lou |
Sometimes when my girl and I don't know what to do, instead of watching a movie, we're watching longplays of 8-bit retro games on YouTube. |
| 17:24 |
|
aditsu |
there's a game I kinda remember, but don't know what it's called, I wonder how to find it.. |
| 17:25 |
|
mr_lou |
The CPCwiki.eu forum has a ton of thread like that. "Help me find this game". |
| 17:25 |
|
mr_lou |
Someone usually finds it rather quick. |
| 17:26 |
|
aditsu |
is there a relevant channel? :p |
| 17:32 |
|
mr_lou |
Actually yes, there's #cpc here on Freenode. However, these questions have always been asked on the forum. Much more people there. |
| 17:51 |
|
aditsu |
it was either a Spectrum game or a DOS game, don't know if it had a CPC version |
| 18:48 |
|
mr_lou |
What do you remember about it? :-) |
| 18:49 |
|
aditsu |
mr_lou: I just posted on another site: http://www.mobygames.com/forums/dga,2/dgb,11/dgm,241130/ |
| 18:51 |
|
mr_lou |
heh, that is rather vague indeed. :-) |
| 18:51 |
|
mr_lou |
But never say never. |
| 18:51 |
|
mr_lou |
People on CPCwiki forum has guessed some pretty vague game descriptions. |
| 18:54 |
|
aditsu |
I think it's rather specific compared to some other posts :p |
| 19:39 |
|
pdurbin |
mr_lou: If I can think of a platform like that I'll let you know. Like aditsu said 50 Hz is pretty specific. |
