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Topic for #virtualJUG is now Welcome to the Virtual JUG - http://virtualJUG.com. IRC logs can be found here -> http://irclog.greptilian.com/virtualJUG/today |
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JJoseph |
Will these presentations be available for viewing after the conference? |
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mpasteven |
JJoseph: I believe they will be hosted on YouTube, which automatically records them |
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JJoseph |
Thanks, mpasteven |
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alostale |
40 min to go! :) |
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Aditya |
hi |
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Habska |
Livestream? |
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Habska |
starting or not? |
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a3rHpa |
hello |
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a3rHpa |
any one there |
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a3rHpa |
hi |
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a3rHpa |
any one there |
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a3rHpa |
??????????? |
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christmo |
Hey how are you? |
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a3rHpa |
fine just testing the irc channel |
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christmo |
Good me too! |
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a3rHpa |
i hear you loud and clear |
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ad_robotics |
yes :) |
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christmo |
(y) |
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vasilei |
yes |
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Praeterii |
yes |
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debu |
yes |
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debu |
yes |
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radcortez |
hi guys! |
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radcortez |
welcome! |
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rohit |
hello |
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smarks |
Hello! |
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Praeterii |
hello :) |
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shouel |
hi |
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Freakman |
no sound? |
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Freakman |
ah |
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brunoais |
128 and no OP's.... |
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jmiguel |
Hello guys! |
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jmiguel |
Yes, looks like there is sound.. I hear the keyboards ;-) |
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JakubB |
Hi :) |
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alexn |
Hi |
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shouel |
hi guys |
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JavaDevVictoria |
hi all |
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pawelpe |
Hi Guys :) |
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Guest90739 |
Good luck for this marathon |
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Malikh |
Hi everyone |
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BARATH |
Hi |
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BARATH |
Is the session recorded to view later |
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a3rHpa |
اه |
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a3rHpa |
hi |
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radcortez |
hi |
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Naveen2k |
hi |
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deceiver |
hi |
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sjmaple |
hello everyone! thanks for joining! here's to the start of an amazing adventure! :D |
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sisko59 |
hello |
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smarks |
@sjmaple: it's late here so I'm going to sign off; see you in 19.5 hours or so! |
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a3rHpa |
hi |
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sjmaple |
wow! hey @smarks! |
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sjmaple |
have a good sleep :) see you tomorrow! |
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jesuis |
Hello :) |
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smarks |
ok! just wanted to tune in for the kickoff; see you later! |
07:16 |
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sjmaple |
see ya! |
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a3rHpa |
cy |
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Imato |
Hello programming bots |
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a3rHpa |
في عرب في الغرفة؟؟ |
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maryg |
This event is awesome! Glad to be present during the kickoff. I'm in Chicago and need some sleep before re-joining in the morning. Thank you @Simon, @Roberto, and all of the rest of the organizing team! |
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a3rHpa |
see you later maryg |
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sjmaple |
thanks @maryg - see you in the morning! |
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brunoaiss |
How do you deal with situations where a code in review goes back to progress? |
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brunoaiss |
How do you deal when you need 2 merges to complete it? |
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a3rHpa |
any one have the link to the automation software he is talking about |
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HarmeetSingh |
hi all |
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sjmaple |
welcome Harmeet! :) |
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ilanpillemer |
what fun |
07:30 |
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HarmeetSingh |
hello @simon |
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a3rHpa |
can any one post the link to the home page of the automation software he is using |
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a3rHpa |
???? |
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sjmaple |
I'll grab it from Sven |
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ilanpillemer |
no, do you know what it is? |
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TulsaJavaDevGrou |
He's from Atlassian so I assume its stuff they have written |
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mylenereiners |
Agent Charlie is in Bitbucket :) |
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a3rHpa |
thanks |
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TulsaJavaDevGrou |
Here's one from the issue tracker automation http://blogs.atlassian.com/2014/02/atlassian-support-uses-jira-automation-plugin/ |
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akmanocha |
i joined late... can you tell me its atlassian? |
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TulsaJavaDevGrou |
so far yes |
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akmanocha |
okk |
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akmanocha |
i hope its not bamboo |
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yasar |
Yasar Holland |
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a3rHpa |
في عرب في الغرفة؟؟ |
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radcortez |
any questions? |
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JakubB |
Clap, clap :) |
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guz |
good job |
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parrot61 |
did you bot pentests? |
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a3rHpa |
so he is automating every thing from agen-charli |
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Gokusama |
do u have a plan make them, some of them, opensource ? |
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Jai |
Automation is the future for sure ... but are we ruining our carrier ... what are the other areas where the job market is growing |
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radcortez |
Gokusama: maybe, some bots were integrated in bitbucket, but most are still in house |
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radcortez |
so most likely if they are stable enough they will get to bitbucket |
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Gokusama |
cool |
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a3rHpa |
https://bitbucket.org/atlassian/agent-charlie |
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TulsaJavaDevGrou |
Does anyone know how long it will take a session to be available after it completes? Thinking about some sleep but some of the next few sessions I'd like to watch within the 24 hours |
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a3rHpa |
ؤمشح |
07:57 |
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a3rHpa |
clap |
07:57 |
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Key |
Clap Clap!! |
07:57 |
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Praeterii |
thanks iit was awesome |
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ilanpillemer |
*clap* *clap* *clap* |
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parrot61 |
thanx |
07:58 |
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BretislavWajtr |
clapy clap! |
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a3rHpa |
*clap* *clap* *clap* |
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MariuszMag |
clap*clap*... |
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Yinka |
lol |
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Guest59946 |
Thanks Sven |
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ilanpillemer |
Simon where are you broadcasting from? |
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radcortez |
TulsaJavaDevGrou: they are available as soon as the hangout overs |
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Saif_Jordan |
What was the standup bot name ? |
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radcortez |
but each hangout runs for 8 hours to cover the different timezones |
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ilanpillemer |
NaggyBot |
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radcortez |
so this and the next 7 sessions will be available in the youtube channel after exactly 7 hours :) |
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jesuis |
Awesome! |
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KKhosla |
Hi, Can I get the link to google hangout where you guys are connected too? |
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KKhosla |
sjmaple: Hi, Can I get the link to google hangout where you guys are connected too? |
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a3rHpa |
hello raffeal |
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sjmaple |
@KKhosla hey, we're just giving that out to speakers and JUGs as we have a limit to the number of attendees on there |
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KKhosla |
sjmaple: Ah ok. No issues.. :-) |
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Ehsan |
https://github.com/raphw |
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Darth |
Tke cake is a lie |
08:08 |
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sjmaple |
if you wanted to vote for bytebuddy (great bytecode manipulation tool) you can do so here - https://jaxlondon.com/jax-awards/ |
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sjmaple |
ilanpillemer: I'm at home, broadcasting from UK :) |
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DestinyAwaits |
sjmaple: Do we see these sessions later on the youtube channel once the live broadcast is over? |
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Bhakti |
the Live session is little blur |
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Aman_Symc |
the Live session is little blur > you can change quality from settings menu |
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sjmaple |
that may be your settings... click the settings cog on the youtube widget |
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sjmaple |
pick the highest res you can |
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sjmaple |
likely 720p |
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Kosha |
@sjmaple: thanks had the same issue of blurness but got resolved |
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sjmaple |
@DestinyAwaits yep, it's all part of the same stream, so you can rewind that |
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sjmaple |
@DestinyAwaits we'll split up into individual videos after and upload them individually also |
08:14 |
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sjmaple |
@Kosha great! I'll mention it at the start of sessions from now on for others too |
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royvanrijn |
Currently: 372 watching <- more viewers than the average conference keynote room |
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DestinyAwaits |
sjmaple: That will be great. Thanks.. :) End of the billing cycle and already exhausted most of my data limits that is why I asked. :) |
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sjmaple |
@royvanrijn I have a feeling that will go up for EMEA and Americas regions too - most of our members are situated there |
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autobot |
Can you watch the presentation after live event ends? |
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Kosha |
@autobot Yes |
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sjmaple |
@autobot yep, after the recording it all stays on youtube |
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sjmaple |
we'll embed onto our past sessions page too for easier navigation |
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justgaffing |
@sjmaple. thanks recording. |
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justgaffing |
@sjmaple. thanks for recording. |
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sjmaple |
@justgaffing np |
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Ingkenyb |
publicaran este video? |
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blue |
dawudr |
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ParamSelvam |
any suggestion on profiling tools which provide this level of information |
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karianna |
Jitwatch |
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karianna |
Find it on GitHub |
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karianna |
https://github.com/AdoptOpenJDK/jitwatch |
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ParamSelvam |
thanks |
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karianna |
Hi all BTW - Martijn from the London Java Community here :-) |
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mimic47 |
Hello |
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DestinyAwaits |
sjmaple: Do you have any plans to cover collections and Multithreading/concurrency videos planned? With some real-time codes to back the theory? |
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sjmaple |
java collections is actually the next session :) |
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sjmaple |
not sure if we'll see real time code in that session |
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sjmaple |
if not - let me know and we can add something like that as a vJUG session outside of this conference |
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sjmaple |
we usually run around 2 sessions a month |
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DestinyAwaits |
sjmaple: I like your work on collections cheat sheet for example and its something I have kept that with me since you posted that article but the thing is I can't keep all of that in mind.. Maybe a video session might do the trick.. People also ask for how most common collections works internally and when to use what.. I video combined with all these ideas from you will be very helpful.. Please do give it |
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DestinyAwaits |
a thought.. :) |
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DestinyAwaits |
hmm. I knew that but the presentation might not be that detailed.. :) |
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sjmaple |
great to hear - let's see how this next session goes - I'd be keen to hear what you think |
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Saif_Jordan |
Slides resolution is poor |
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DestinyAwaits |
I will surely let you know.. :) |
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DestinyAwaits |
Saif_Jordan: try to change the youtube setting to higher resolution |
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ivannov |
Saig_Jordan: maybe it's your internet connection. It's perfect here |
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DestinyAwaits |
720p is the max it supports.. :) |
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SomeNick |
sjmaple: Question for the speaker - What is a good place to go for more information on this topic coming from a point of zero-knowledge?? |
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Saif_Jordan |
Wohooo , Youtube settings |
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Saif_Jordan |
:) |
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BretW |
:) |
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sjmaple |
thanks, SomeNick |
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sjmaple |
will ask in a few mins - if anyone else has questions, pls do add them in chat |
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karianna |
@SomeNick - mechanical-sympathy, friends of jclarity, concurrency-interest are good groups to join. Readinghte JVM language spec (Oracle Press) is also helpful |
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karianna |
Disclaimer: I am not hte speaker :-) |
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karianna |
Disclaimer: I am not the speaker :-) |
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Stepan |
Question for Rafael: doesn't the branching optimization directly in Java code make the program design less understandable? |
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DestinyAwaits |
Pretty fast.. :) Please share the slides.. :) |
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SomeNick |
karianna: thanks. |
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fabriziocucci |
great talk...it would be great to have the slides! :) |
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Zaid |
where do i find the slide |
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Saif_Jordan |
++ ^^ |
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susan |
Excellent talk |
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Key |
Missed the link for voting ByteBuddy. Can you send again please? |
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Kosha |
could wrute these links in the chat |
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Kosha |
write** |
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DestinyAwaits |
http://rafael.codes/ |
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sjmaple |
https://jaxlondon.com/jax-awards/ |
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BretW |
Didn't catched the name of the best tool to do such performace testing... anybody? |
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DestinyAwaits |
go to this site you will get the link to mostly everything mentioned in the slide |
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DestinyAwaits |
http://bytebuddy.net/ |
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sainaen |
BretW, if you mean microbenchmarking, it was JMH: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/code-tools/jmh/ |
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BretW |
sainaen: Thanks, I think that's it |
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Kosha |
thanks |
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Yinka |
Clap |
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BretW |
Thanks |
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SomeNick |
Thanks |
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Key |
Thanks a lot |
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karianna |
@Stepan - the optimisation happens at the bytecode level, you'd write your source code the same |
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Kosha |
could you suggest good links for hot methods |
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a3rHpa |
where can i find the slides please |
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Kosha |
yes |
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Praeterii |
yes |
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debu |
yup i can see them |
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ChewJava |
DukeTroopers :D |
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akmanocha |
yup |
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zhorzh |
hey :) |
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ChewJava |
The force is strong with the iterator |
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Zaid |
:D |
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ChewJava |
BUUUHHHHH |
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sjmaple |
a3rHpa: I'll get all slides for all speakers and update on the vjug24 site |
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sjmaple |
hahahahah, ChewJava |
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sjmaple |
:) |
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Paps |
will there be videos of the topics |
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Paps |
from the live streams ? |
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sjmaple |
yep everything is recorded and will be available afterwards |
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Paps |
thank you very much! |
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ChewJava |
what happened to the while(true) loop? |
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Kosha |
yes |
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ChewJava |
^^Question :) |
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HarmeetSingh |
when will java introduce official immutable collection? |
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selckin |
never |
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HarmeetSingh |
hmm.. |
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ChewJava |
why? |
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asishgupta |
hi guys |
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ChewJava |
Question: What happens if I iterate over an immutable collection and add content to the base collect in another thread? Here I need synchronization, right? The slide says that it's never needed |
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MaciejTrojniarz |
Immutable collection should be allowing to add anything to itself? |
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HarmeetSingh |
@ChewJava if you collection is Immutable, is it not possible to add content in existing collection, the add method return another new list |
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MaciejTrojniarz |
+1 @HarmeetSingh |
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selckin |
thats why they hide the "base collection" from you |
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corsibu |
With immutable collections, you are threadsafe, but this comes at the cost of not being able to modify the original list, but creating a duplicate of it and inserting the new values |
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HarmeetSingh |
For java 8 developers, #Javaslang is an amazing api for collections |
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ChewJava |
@HarmeetSingh @MaciejTrojniarz but you can add elements to the underlying collection |
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HarmeetSingh |
@ChewJava, still java have mutable collection not Immutable |
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HarmeetSingh |
for Immutable, we have Google Guava, PCollection, javaslang etc |
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mimic47 |
ChewJava: the unmodifiableList only references the base list |
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ChewJava |
yes |
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mimic47 |
So adding to the base, will add to the unmodifiableList |
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ChewJava |
and the question is about concurrency |
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ChewJava |
yes |
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mimic47 |
Loophole |
09:45 |
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HarmeetSingh |
@ChewJava unmodifiable and Immutable are two different list |
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ChewJava |
the slides says that you do not need any concurrency sync when using them |
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HarmeetSingh |
@ChewJava unmodifiable and Immutable are two different list types |
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ChewJava |
think that is wrong |
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HarmeetSingh |
@ChewJava what is wrong ? |
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mimic47 |
Why would you want to sync them? |
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ChewJava |
Java do not have Immutable collection in base, right? |
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HarmeetSingh |
yes |
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ChewJava |
@mimic47 @HarmeetSingh see https://gist.github.com/hendrikebbers/c249f88e21600008bcb345467632bd8d |
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HarmeetSingh |
@ChewJava, in this, they are using unmodifiable java list |
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Zaid |
unmodifiableList won't update |
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HarmeetSingh |
what is the problem with this code @ChewJava |
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ChewJava |
Why Java do not has a IdentityList ?? Always need to do IdentityHasMap<A, A> |
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ChewJava |
@HarmeetSingh not working ends in exception based on concurrent modification. And that was what I expected |
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ChewJava |
But I think the slide says something differnet |
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HarmeetSingh |
i am not sure about slides, because i was joining late |
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mimic47 |
Me too |
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ChewJava |
ah, ok. That was just the point |
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ChewJava |
;) |
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mimic47 |
But I'm sure they would say to NEVER do this |
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ChewJava |
Think the slide was wrong or not clear |
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HarmeetSingh |
yes |
09:59 |
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ChewJava |
yes |
09:59 |
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ChewJava |
sure |
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HarmeetSingh |
i am not sure, slides are wrong |
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HarmeetSingh |
this may be, you are confused with mutable and immutable |
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Javaslang |
Nice picture (from Ape to Jedi) ;) |
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HarmeetSingh |
@Javaslang also in session :) |
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Javaslang |
Hi Hermeet :)) |
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Javaslang |
I meant Harmeet :)) |
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DestinyAwaits |
sjmaple: I believe you must consider making a video that covers up to JDK 7 as JDK 8 is not being used.. |
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DestinyAwaits |
Regards to Collections. |
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sjmaple |
interesting :) |
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sjmaple |
are you sure the solution isn't to move up to JDK 8? ;) |
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MaciejTrojniarz |
@DestinyAwaits Don't do that because it will create another excuses for not switching to Java 8 ;) The more urge to switch from DEVs the quicker it happen ;) |
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DestinyAwaits |
MaciejTrojniarz: Companies don't switch jdk easily at least here in India not sure how it goes in your country.. I prefer using latest versions but again it's up to clients and companies.. I will still be looking out for a video soon on Collections covered till JDK 7 for now from sjmaple.. :) |
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MaciejTrojniarz |
DestinyAwaits: Of course it's not the case that it easily doable. I'm also sharing the pain that still working with project not using JDK8 ;) |
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DestinyAwaits |
:) |
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Abhijith |
Lukas is SQLing all Java users (especially ORMmers) |
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sjmaple |
any questions, put them straight in this chat and I'll ask Lukas |
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mimic47 |
Question: couldn't we use triggers for trick #7? |
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ilanpillemer |
regular epxressions with XML in SQL statements. Eeek |
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BretW |
:-D that man is crazy :)... that was awesome |
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MariuszMag |
it was awesome ;) |
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ilanpillemer |
triggers are turing complete too |
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mpasteven |
Just woke up, rather early |
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SomeNick |
Thanks for the talk! |
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BretW |
thanks Lukas... great talk! |
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Praeterii |
it was really fun |
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mimic47 |
sjmaple: could we get a trivia bot for in between talks? |
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ilanpillemer |
what is a trivia bot? |
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brunoais |
XPath *.* |
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mimic47 |
ilanpillemer: irc trivia?? |
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xala3pa |
Hello Iván!! |
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sjmaple |
https://twitter.com/ivan_stefanov |
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iseespock |
hello and thanks |
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fridrik |
hi! |
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mpasteven |
Hello |
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a3rHpa |
hello |
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ilanpillemer |
Miaoooow |
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ilanpillemer |
clouds are nice |
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JacobAae |
#ivanontour - now from home :) |
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yasar |
mucho gusto |
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jmiguel |
Hello @JacobAae , nice to see you here! |
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sjmaple |
hopefully that font is large enough - let me know if it's not readable |
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ilanpillemer |
so much of intelliJ. Where is the emacs love. |
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sjmaple |
make sure you have already increased your video quality - click the video settings cog and select 720p |
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sjmaple |
haha |
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sjmaple |
maybe he finally figured out the key combination to close emacs, so didn't dare open it up again? ;) |
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mpasteven |
I am using the 240p stream and I can see the text on the screen, although I am using youtube-dl+vlc |
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sjmaple |
wow, I love powerasserts so much! :) |
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__clinton56__ |
Could we have Intelij IDEA in presentation mode? It would be more visible. |
11:18 |
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brunoais |
Where can I find the recording of: "An introduction to JVM performance by Rafael Winterhalter" |
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brunoais |
sjmaple, ^ |
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a3rHpa |
usually the vjug channel on youtube will have a recording of the sessions |
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brunoais |
a3rHpa, I can only see up to 2h before |
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brunoais |
*in the past |
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mpasteven |
"foo" is a number, if you increase the base |
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a3rHpa |
is the lecturer using xfce |
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mpasteven |
brunoais: I believe YouTube has to process the videos before they appear |
11:24 |
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brunoais |
mpasteven, Oh! Got it |
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brunoais |
Any idea how long that takes? |
11:25 |
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mpasteven |
Depends on YouTube and the video, can take 5 minutes can take up to 6 hours |
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mpasteven |
YouTube takes the input video and converts it to multiple formats |
11:26 |
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brunoais |
OK. That gives me a fair time-frame |
11:27 |
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brunoais |
Thank you |
11:27 |
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mpasteven |
However, a single live stream is being used and I am not sure if YouTube has the capability to split these streams |
11:27 |
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mpasteven |
So it could be manually spliced and then uploaded |
11:27 |
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sjmaple |
hmmm, I'm hoping that the live stream only allows you to go back 2 hrs, but the youtube live recording states it can record 8 hours |
11:27 |
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brunoais |
It is limiting backward scanning |
11:28 |
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brunoais |
I want to go back 3hrs :S |
11:28 |
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sjmaple |
once this stream has completed in approx 3.5 hrs, we'll hopefully have an 8 hour recording |
11:28 |
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brunoais |
OK |
11:28 |
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sjmaple |
youtube automatically uploads it for us |
11:28 |
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brunoais |
I'll try by then |
11:28 |
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brunoais |
thank you |
11:28 |
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sjmaple |
we'll split it up into 8 sessions and upload manually for ease of viewing post conference |
11:28 |
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a3rHpa |
thanks sjmaple |
11:29 |
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a3rHpa |
i suggest that every speaker tells us about his setup:OS he is using IDE..etc |
11:29 |
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mpasteven |
a3rHpa: I do not remember XFCE using double bars, it looks more like Ubuntu's WM, GNOME, or Mate |
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tkupek |
this is Linux Mint |
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a3rHpa |
ok |
11:33 |
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sjmaple |
shame we don't have Venkat Subramanium on this year |
11:34 |
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a3rHpa |
yeep |
11:34 |
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sjmaple |
he uses a great combination of Textmate and a javac plugin that allows him to compile and run when he saves and push the output as a little hint bubble to the screen |
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corsibu |
out of curiosity ? why is he using constructor injection and not @Autowired? |
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LubosM |
corsibu: @Autowired just tells spring to autowire a dependency .. you still need a way to set the dependency though, either through constructor or setter |
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ilanpillemer |
so jet lagged I feel like lying on the floor and sleeping. |
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corsibu |
@LubosM wouldn't the @Autowired take care of instantiating the dependency automatically, especially when it was annotated as @Component ? |
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LubosM |
@corsibu: it will .. he was just anotating the constructor arguments so that spring injects those |
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sjmaple |
any questions for Ivan? |
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yasar |
good explenation |
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alostale |
s it possible to reuse the same parameters in different test cases? |
11:51 |
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MatiMati |
Hi, I want to ask about testing spring application (with context running) there are some problems with mocking beans, could you us how to deal with spock mocks and spring beans? |
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corsibu |
thanks ! |
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a3rHpa |
thanks Ivan |
11:53 |
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alostale |
then is it possible to return a table parameters from a method? |
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LubosM |
can spock mock static method defined in java ? |
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alostale |
thx |
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akrystian |
Thanks. Nice talk. |
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acedesignz |
hello |
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mimic47 |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqRtUwi3kv8 |
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acedesignz |
the SQL tips and tricks are awesome, would like a link to the vid. |
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mpasteven |
Echo! |
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a3rHpa |
hello |
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mpasteven |
MicroProfile is a bit confusing with Java ME, which is Micro Edition |
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surendrand |
blr jug disable camera please |
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@mpasteven you mean the naming? |
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sjmaple |
intelliJ again :) |
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a3rHpa |
but this time the text looks big and clear |
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sjmaple |
let me know if there are any questions about this session |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple: A question: Is Java EE to Java EE Micro comparable in size to Java SE Full to Java SE compact1? |
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mpasteven |
As in say percentage wise |
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mpasteven |
or fraction |
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mimic47 |
Question: seeing as how EE is a superset of SE, any chance of merging the two, and getting a macro profile or something? |
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surendrand |
microprofile is embedding the app servers like springboot? |
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mpasteven |
Thanks for answering |
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alex-cambridge |
How would you compare MicroProfile and the new JaveEE 7 or 8 against Spring and Spring Boot? |
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unicorns |
13:00 PM UTC – Delivering unicorns by Kasia Mrowca |
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unicorns |
start that |
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mpasteven |
Thanks |
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Vaibhav |
Thank You. |
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ChewJava |
🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄🦄 |
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sjmaple |
sorry for the delay! but we'll get back on track :D |
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smoyer |
@sjmaple - use the force |
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mpasteven |
Well, one big project I had failed, although the small project goes much better |
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pdurbin |
sjmaple: congrats on the award at javaone! |
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sjmaple |
thanks! Very proud to have recieved it - big thanks to everyone, from all the vJUG leaders to all our members to- great community |
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sjmaple |
let me know if there are any questions :) |
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Tomasz |
Maybe Excel spreadsheet is all the business wants because it's tested, proven and cheaper than developer? |
13:47 |
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ChewJava |
What is this 🦄 doing in my backyard? |
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DestinyAwaits |
We don't get the license to IntelliJ Idea.. :P |
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DestinyAwaits |
I use it a lot.. :) |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple: A question: Would you say that having modularization in your project is a plus? |
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mpasteven |
Many small parts instead of one large part, if you have to have a large project |
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DestinyAwaits |
is it Youtube bug or am missing something here.. I was not able to go back to 10 SQL Tricks That You Didn’t Think Were Possible by Lukas Eder |
13:58 |
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DestinyAwaits |
Can anyone go to this session? |
13:58 |
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DestinyAwaits |
:( |
13:58 |
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mpasteven |
YouTube live can only go back so far |
13:58 |
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mpasteven |
You would have to wait until it is uploaded |
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DestinyAwaits |
hmm |
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mpasteven |
Thanks for the talk |
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DestinyAwaits |
I don't find any session on Mockito :( |
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MaAmar |
On the testing side, there was the Spock session |
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DestinyAwaits |
hmm |
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DestinyAwaits |
missed that one too.. :( |
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xala3pa |
Simon , we are not seeing your screen |
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DestinyAwaits |
I have missed a few sessions due to some other work.. am waiting for the uploads now.. :) |
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DestinyAwaits |
Next session started.. xala3pa |
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DestinyAwaits |
refresh your browser if you are not seeing anything |
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DestinyAwaits |
Akka Akka.. hehe.. :) |
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mpasteven |
If you are on Linux, you can do what I am doing: youtube-dl -o - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZDmhHmitR0 | vlc - |
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mpasteven |
Avoids the need for a browser, since on my netbook it is quite slow while mplayer/vlc are pretty much instant |
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DestinyAwaits |
Great way to stream If data is not a limitation.. In my case am on a 480p res. and its fine to me.. :) |
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hackendemoniado |
hello mariano are you connected here?? |
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mpasteven |
I am using 360p |
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hackendemoniado |
i am usin 240p ... |
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DestinyAwaits |
heh... Data is a limitation for many am worried about mine since morning.. :P |
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mpasteven |
The stream is available also in 144p |
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DestinyAwaits |
heh yes |
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hackendemoniado |
jajaj me too |
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ehsan |
Is there any techniques to migrate to agile if we are not an agile team so far ? |
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DestinyAwaits |
sjmaple: 2 more interesting topic requests... 1. Mockito, 2. Bitwise.. Bit Fiddling as used in many JDK Library.. :) |
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sjmaple |
thanks for the input! always welcome :) |
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DestinyAwaits |
Thanks a ton!... |
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mpasteven |
Seems I must go away for a short bit |
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mpasteven |
cya, thanks |
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DestinyAwaits |
cya |
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BretW |
sjmaple: Question on Johan: Regarding back-pressure - if the source of messages is external system and is producing much more messages than our stream can handle, what happens to all those messages which cannot be processed? Are they skipped? Is there some strategy for this or I just didn't get the point? |
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BretW |
thanks |
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corsibu |
Performance wise, are there any differences between Java and Scala Streams APIs ? |
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LukeH |
Thanks APAC. Great session :) |
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TulsaJavaDevGrou |
I think there should have been a session on timezones |
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LorenzoV |
Hello |
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delectAPPle |
Hello |
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TulsaJavaDevGrou |
yes |
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ragsns |
Nothing going on right now correct, until we wait for Europe? |
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ivannov |
Yes, don't forget that we move now to the EMEA stream |
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ivannov |
give us a few minutes to start broadcasting :) |
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inv |
where's stream? |
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zeeshan |
not sure |
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ragsns |
I heard they are still having some tech issues. Soon I think (and hope) |
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HybridProgrammer |
has EMEA started streaming for anyone yet? |
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royvanrijn |
Backup is running |
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DestinyAwaits |
Direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJy_FK4H69M |
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zeeshan |
no not yet |
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DestinyAwaits |
still not started |
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royvanrijn |
The backup stream is live now, not EMEA |
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royvanrijn |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQbqNb77NDU |
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Egbert |
bread wi' nowt taken out.. |
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DestinyAwaits |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQbqNb77NDU |
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HybridProgrammer |
Thank you zeeshan |
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DestinyAwaits |
use above link |
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DestinyAwaits |
its working |
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DestinyAwaits |
live stream |
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JavaFan2020 |
so has the live stream started yet |
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DestinyAwaits |
yes |
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DestinyAwaits |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQbqNb77NDU |
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DestinyAwaits |
use this link |
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sjmaple |
please refresh your vJUG24 page |
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HybridProgrammer |
confirmed EMEA is online and streaming now |
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TulsaJavaDevGrou |
Looks like if you refresh the vjug page the link is there |
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sjmaple |
I had problems with the stream, sorry! |
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sjmaple |
had touse our backup stream :( |
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sjmaple |
but we're live now at vJUG24.com |
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sjmaple |
EMEA section! |
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sjmaple |
phew |
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DestinyAwaits |
sjmaple: This link is working too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQbqNb77NDU |
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shelajev |
cool, is the video on vjug24.com working? |
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ragsns |
I am using youtube link as well |
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DestinyAwaits |
I have pasted that earlier too.. I hope everyone is watching it now |
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DestinyAwaits |
:) |
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DestinyAwaits |
shelajev: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQbqNb77NDU |
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DestinyAwaits |
use this it will work |
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mpasteven |
Hello again |
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DestinyAwaits |
hey |
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DestinyAwaits |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQbqNb77NDU |
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DestinyAwaits |
use this one to watch the live stream |
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mpasteven |
Thanks |
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DestinyAwaits |
np |
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shelajev |
yeah, DestinyAwaits, that's true, but we probably have people not in this channel :) and it'd be cool to check if they can join the fun too |
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DestinyAwaits |
:) |
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shelajev |
thanks though! |
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DestinyAwaits |
you're welcome.. :) |
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mpasteven |
Personally, I cannot wait until Web Assembly, this way web dev can be completely be done in Java without requiring Javascript in the middle |
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sjmaple |
ok, we're fully up and running again in EMEA - https://virtualjug.com/vjug24/ |
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sjmaple |
I've put the EMEA section at the top of the page |
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shelajev |
boom! well done, Simon! |
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sjmaple |
and APAC replay in full is at the bottom of the page |
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mpasteven |
Java 7 has asynchronous I/O, with the new NIO classes |
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mpasteven |
Javascript is also generally just single threaded also |
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TulsaJavaDevGrou |
Is there some sort of hybrid approach like grails, jruby, jython where you can use node.js on a jvm for IO and in the same app use java for computation? |
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edufinn |
actually JSON is typed |
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mpasteven |
TulsaJavaDevGrou: Do not know, however Java 8 has a Javascript backend used via the scripting system |
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mpasteven |
Unary plus is pretty much the most unused operator in Java |
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DestinyAwaits |
I really hope there is a small running app demo at the end.. |
15:38 |
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DestinyAwaits |
I really wanted to see how they both interact |
15:38 |
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DestinyAwaits |
:) |
15:38 |
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ragsns |
Yes, there is a demo. but time might be an issue. |
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DestinyAwaits |
hmm. but it will be great If the same is shared offline and just a demo run is provided |
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mpasteven |
I do wonder if Watson still runs on IBM's POWER servers |
15:41 |
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TulsaJavaDevGrou |
I must say I am impressed overall with how well you get the livestream paradigm working....I've tried to present just one session livestreamed from our JUG and it was a bit of a learning curve |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple: A question: Do you believe that Web Assembly would eventually replace the usage of Javascript and instead use Java in its place on the front end? |
15:44 |
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elzahr |
depends on brower makers, right? |
15:44 |
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elzahr |
depends on browser makers, right? |
15:44 |
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mpasteven |
elzahr: All major browsers state they are implementing it |
15:44 |
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elzahr |
oh really, good news then :) |
15:45 |
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mpasteven |
The only thing I am not sure of, is Apple |
15:45 |
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mpasteven |
but they use WebKit |
15:45 |
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sjmaple |
great question mpasteven, I'll ask |
15:45 |
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mpasteven |
But Mozilla, Google, and Microsoft are working together to create WASM |
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mpasteven |
Actually, it looks like it includes Apple also |
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mpasteven |
No, but if all of the major browser vendors implement it, it becomes defacto |
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mpasteven |
olbpetersson: WASM is also much simpler than Javascript, so other browsers can implement it also |
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elzahr |
i think he means if its an standard defined by regular orgs like IETF or similar, or is just defined between big corps |
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mpasteven |
It is not |
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mpasteven |
Although, the groups working on it have quite a say in web standards |
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elzahr |
muted! |
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FabrizioF |
Q: Have you considered the use of GraphQL to coordinate the call to different REST services and the shape of the data? |
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DestinyAwaits |
to know Demo code ask for it please? |
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christmo |
What do you think about join node.js with java queues? |
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FabrizioF |
GraphQL != Graph Databases |
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DestinyAwaits |
Thanks for asking.. :) |
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mpasteven |
Thanks |
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christmo |
thanks :-D |
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bazoka |
thnks |
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mpasteven |
Starting to get hungry |
15:57 |
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DestinyAwaits |
Thanks for the great session.. Java and NodeJs am hooked to try it out.. :) |
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gsson_ |
Should play some crappy music between talks :) |
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sjmaple |
should I sing? |
15:59 |
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gsson_ |
Please! |
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mpasteven |
Sing _AND_ sword fight someone else while both of you are on rolling chairs |
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DestinyAwaits |
someone joined.. |
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DestinyAwaits |
haha |
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elzahr |
ive barely watched 2 or 3.. |
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smoyer |
relevant XKCD link for those who don't get it: https://xkcd.com/303/ |
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DestinyAwaits |
audio out of sync.. :( |
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mpasteven |
DestinyAwaits: yes, I noticed that |
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DestinyAwaits |
for me or everyone is facing this? |
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DestinyAwaits |
hmm |
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DestinyAwaits |
lets wait for the uplods it will not have that issue |
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DestinyAwaits |
latency |
16:04 |
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DestinyAwaits |
:) |
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brunoais |
sjmaple, You didn't show the slides, m8 :D |
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rburton--- |
hows my peoplez :) |
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mpasteven |
Hello |
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mpasteven |
And they are on rolling chairs! |
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DestinyAwaits |
Ah I don't see any IndiaJug on twitter.. Disappointing to know.. Either people learned a lot or they are like me.. Straight away coming to the channel.. :P |
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Zaid |
on the channel :) |
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* rburton--- |
slips off his bottoms and puts a button up shirt on |
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DestinyAwaits |
Anyone explain why People use IntelliJ Idea instead of NetBeans or Eclipse? |
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* DestinyAwaits |
loving the live coding. |
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mpasteven |
DestinyAwaits: I use a normal text editor |
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DestinyAwaits |
mpasteven: I use IntelliJ.. But just need to know others perspective.. :) |
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mpasteven |
My system is rather sluggish, so when I type in an IDE, it essentially buffers |
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rburton--- |
I still love Intellij. Although I'm considering using go-vim for Go |
16:14 |
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mpasteven |
So if I type really fast, I have to wait for all of the characters to appear |
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rburton--- |
mpasteven: sounds like you have a memory allocation issue? |
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mpasteven |
Memory is fine, it is rendering that slows it down |
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Jordizzle |
Oh hai |
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rburton--- |
A lot of folks struggle with Vert.x at times when it comes to JDBC related work due to the fact that JDBC is blocking. There's a pattern people employ to handle that. |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple: Will there be any topics on stuff such as IoT for this vJUG? |
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shelajev |
mpasteven, the agenda is available here: https://virtualjug.com/vjug24/ |
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DestinyAwaits |
request/response seems interactive |
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shelajev |
with the times of the sessions |
16:22 |
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DestinyAwaits |
publish/subsrcibe is not am I correct? |
16:22 |
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rburton--- |
Remember AWT :) |
16:22 |
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shelajev |
but I don't think there's an IoT session |
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DestinyAwaits |
rburton---: so for jdbc we need worker? |
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DestinyAwaits |
right? |
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Guest18195 |
yes |
16:23 |
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DestinyAwaits |
as per slides it should be used for blocking stuff |
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DestinyAwaits |
ok |
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mpasteven |
If your name automatically turns into Guest followed by a number, then someone else has already claimed the name that you use |
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DestinyAwaits |
\me loves live coding * |
16:24 |
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DestinyAwaits |
wrong slash.. :P |
16:24 |
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mpasteven |
You can try another name with /nick someothername |
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rburton--- |
DestinyAwaits: correct |
16:25 |
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DestinyAwaits |
hmm |
16:25 |
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DestinyAwaits |
thanks |
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rburton--- |
Otherwise you'll end up blocking everyone |
16:26 |
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mpasteven |
shelajev: I took a look, but it does not seem that there are any |
16:26 |
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rburton--- |
so it does make using things like JDBC messy a little but you get the upside of scaling and performance |
16:26 |
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DestinyAwaits |
hmm.. so apart from jdbc there seems many other things that might be blocking in nature too.. IO maybe |
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Guest18195 |
There's async http clients, for webservice calls for example. |
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Guest18195 |
and it even looks like there's an async JDBC bridge: http://vertx.io/blog/using-the-asynchronous-sql-client/ |
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rburton--- |
Tasks like this in GoLang is super easy as well. You can even use time.After(1*time.Second) to cap how long the entire batch of requests will take |
16:28 |
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rburton--- |
I use this in my system to hit Cassandra for instance because I need to hit different nodes when doing a WHERE ID IN (..) |
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DestinyAwaits |
jdk 8 is highly used.. :P |
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rburton--- |
Sadly, Java took soo many years to get such basic things in place. |
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Malikh |
interesting topic |
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DestinyAwaits |
hmm. JDK still not widely used |
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DestinyAwaits |
var is coming to java |
16:31 |
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rburton--- |
JDK not widely used? |
16:31 |
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DestinyAwaits |
then comes val |
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DestinyAwaits |
JDK * |
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DestinyAwaits |
JDK 8 * |
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DestinyAwaits |
sorry |
16:32 |
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DestinyAwaits |
:) |
16:32 |
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imrel |
used java streams in university assignment (ultimately 2*4 liner) got told to use "more traditional" approach |
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DestinyAwaits |
haha |
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rburton--- |
I've been loving GoLang; but still use Java and Scala heavily |
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Malikh |
java is having its final years unfortunately |
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jfsavard |
Are you guys using java.util.Observable ? You might want to know that Observable is deprecated in JDK9 and there are better alternatives as of today. |
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DestinyAwaits |
Nope.. Didn't use java.util.Observable yet.. What it is for? |
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mpasteven |
Seems Freenode died for a bit |
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DestinyAwaits |
yes |
16:40 |
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coderx |
yup |
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DestinyAwaits |
got kicked out |
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shelajev_ |
oh, the freenode disconnected, if you asked any questions, please repeat them? |
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mpasteven |
I actually use Java 7 still |
16:40 |
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imrel |
sorry, im shy |
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DestinyAwaits |
shelajev_: your nick changed.. |
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shelajev_ |
no worries, imrel! we're trying to be nice and friendly to everyone! |
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Tio |
Observable was used in demo for handling join of service 1 and service 2 |
16:41 |
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Tio |
But it will be deprecated in java9 |
16:41 |
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mpasteven |
If you just connect and your IRC client sees that your nick was already taken, it will use an alternative name |
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shelajev_ |
I'll ask Bert about the Observables and if he has any comments on the changes in JDK 9 |
16:41 |
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smarks1 |
I missed the example. Was it actually using java.util.Observable, or was it using one of the reactive libraries' Observable classes? |
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Tio |
not sure... didn't saw import ... |
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smarks1 |
Was there a code snippet? |
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DestinyAwaits |
ext session is interesting |
16:46 |
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smarks |
Anyway, to close off the Observable issue, RxJava has an Observable class. It's completely independent of java.util.Observable. RxJava is pretty current, and j.u.Observable is very old and disused and is now deprecated in JDK 9. |
16:46 |
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smarks |
My hunch is that the demo used RxJava's Observable. |
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jfsavard2 |
We can see the code snippets at - 11:50 in the current video |
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jfsavard2 |
hi |
16:47 |
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jfsavard2 |
We can see the code snippets at - 11:50 in the current video |
16:47 |
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jfsavard2 |
about the Observable |
16:47 |
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jfsavard2 |
Observable<Message<String>> reply1 = vertx.eventBus().... |
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jfsavard2 |
Perhaps more like minus 14 as of now due to disconnects... |
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Stepan |
Q: Could you please show an example of a Worker - invoking a blocking operation? |
16:49 |
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jfsavard2 |
Nevermind it uses a rx.Observable. |
16:50 |
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DestinyAwaits |
JIT.. |
16:50 |
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DestinyAwaits |
Just In Time I joined.. :P |
16:50 |
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DestinyAwaits |
haha |
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yasar |
can you share git |
16:51 |
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yasar |
i missed the git |
16:52 |
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imrel |
can he do a backflip? :P |
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DestinyAwaits |
how its different from React and Polymer? Not sure If its a question to be asked.. |
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imrel |
yasar i think you can find in github real easy |
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mpasteven |
Someone appears to have dropped utensils on a plate |
16:53 |
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PrajeeshKV |
My first IRC on VJUG :-) |
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jfsavard2 |
"Java Elastic Coud for developer" - url ends with .php |
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DestinyAwaits |
I NEED INTELLiJ IDEA License instead.. :P |
16:54 |
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DestinyAwaits |
Am looking forward to next session.. :) |
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dominik |
why is jelastic running on PHP ? :D |
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mpasteven |
Food time! |
16:55 |
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jfsavard2 |
Was asking myself the same question ahaha |
16:55 |
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imrel |
dominik its only the wordpress |
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DestinyAwaits |
Next session will be my last to call it a day.. Its 10:25 PM here now |
16:56 |
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BretW |
eh... I'm off today... quite tired after 10 hours :)... but thanks everyone, vjug24 is awesome event!! |
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DestinyAwaits |
I salute to sjmaple for been there for so long. I saw this last message (getting tired).. Really hats off.. :) |
16:57 |
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MattOB |
Jelastic promo code? |
16:58 |
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DestinyAwaits |
I really want to leave now but will stick for the next session.. |
16:58 |
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DestinyAwaits |
:) |
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mpasteven |
Tue Sep 27 12:59:49 EDT 2016 |
16:59 |
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mpasteven |
Tue Sep 27 17:00:02 UTC 2016 |
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17:00 |
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imrel |
SOMEONE talked on stream |
17:00 |
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DestinyAwaits |
mpasteven: You wrote a bot for this or passing time till the next session starts.. :) |
17:00 |
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mpasteven |
DestinyAwaits: just /exec -o date |
17:00 |
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DestinyAwaits |
ok |
17:00 |
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mpasteven |
I am doing some Java programming while I listen |
17:00 |
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DestinyAwaits |
mpasteven: Multi tasking already.. Good going.. :) |
17:01 |
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HarmeetSingh |
@smaple you require some power nap :P |
17:01 |
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imrel |
which one is Sander and which one is Paul? |
17:01 |
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mpasteven |
Slow going though, the stream is kind of distracting |
17:01 |
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DestinyAwaits |
hmm |
17:02 |
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ilanpillemer |
? |
17:02 |
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mpasteven |
Just doing a slight refactor of my code |
17:02 |
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DestinyAwaits |
Great.. |
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ilanpillemer |
I am only seeing you on APAC region video |
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DestinyAwaits |
there is a book on Java 9 already.. :P |
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mpasteven |
ilanpillemer: APAC has ended |
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imrel |
can i use jrebel/xrebel for personal hacking longer than 14 days? because you know how 14 datys is not enough on sideprojects scale |
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MattOB |
anyone have the jelastic promo code? |
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HarmeetSingh |
Hey all, Kick-Off with Java9 Jigsaw or Modularity https://blog.knoldus.com/2016/09/23/kick-off-java-9-project-jigsaw-part-i/ |
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dominik |
@MattOB i think you just need to go to https://www.eapps.com/vjug24.php |
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mpasteven |
Freenode is a bit unstable today |
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shelajev |
hey, did the connection drop again? |
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mpasteven |
shelajev: yes |
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shelajev |
vjug24 broke freenode. That's sad :) |
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jfsavard3 |
Try connecting directly from kiwiirc.com, it is much more stable for me |
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mpasteven |
Do developers even use CORBA today? |
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imrel |
no its not |
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jfsavard3 |
corba will be depracated as a module |
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mpasteven |
If you think Java SE 8 compact1 is small, Java ME 8 compact is even smaller |
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jfsavard3 |
the first module to be deprecated in jdk! |
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jfsavard3 |
it is in fact one of the mere reason @Deprecated annotation is allowed on module-info class |
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HarmeetSingh |
@jfsavard3 nice question |
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jfsavard3 |
Uh it's not a question |
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HarmeetSingh |
oh.. |
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jfsavard3 |
Perhaps are you refering to @mpasteven's question? |
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jfsavard3 |
To be clear, corba WILL be deprecated |
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mpasteven |
I believe unary plus is used more than CORBA |
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HarmeetSingh |
i just want confirm, @Deprecated is allow on module-infor |
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jfsavard3 |
Yes it is |
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imrel |
analyis - typo? |
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mpasteven |
imrel: Very likley |
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CesarNog |
Hahah agreed! Bots have feelings too |
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imrel |
feels like more boilerplate |
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mpasteven |
Freenode is very unstable today, usually it is never like this |
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mpasteven |
Our host has not appeared back on IRC, so I would suggest using twitter or similar to ask questions |
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jfsavard3 |
@imrel What is boilerplate ? module-info.java ? |
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imrel |
yeah, |
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dominik |
how will this work together with Dependency Injection frameworks? I basically want to expose my service interfaces, but have my implementaitions available at runtime? |
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jfsavard3 |
@dominik This can be solved with ServiceLoader ... module provides/with etc |
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jfsavard3 |
perhaps he'll talk about it |
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eudriscabrera |
good question @dominik |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple: Welcome back! |
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sjmaple |
my IRC client crashed :( |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple: Which OS do you use? |
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sjmaple |
OSX |
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mpasteven |
There are IRC clients, both graphical and terminal for OS X |
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Zaid |
use https://kiwiirc.com/client, It is working fine. |
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jfsavard3 |
@imrel AFAIK, boilerplate code is when some code is unnecessary. What is your alternative with less code to achieve such security in your classpath? |
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sjmaple |
I use IRC cloud, just because it keeps nice history without having to run a server |
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sjmaple |
but using kiwiirc now |
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mpasteven |
I use screen and irssi, so I can SSH from other systems and access IRC as needed |
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HarmeetSingh |
this module wirings look like google guice |
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sjmaple |
That's what I used to do too, but I can't be bothered to keep a server running to ssh to |
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HarmeetSingh |
Java 9 removes the need of DI ? |
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mpasteven |
ah, I see |
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jfsavard3 |
@HarmeetSingh Not really |
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imrel |
well he used service locator i think |
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HarmeetSingh |
this examples looks like google guice |
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jfsavard3 |
ServiceLoader is actually in jdk since 1.6 anyway |
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mpasteven |
I do wonder if there is going to be a Java ME 9 |
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HarmeetSingh |
jfsavard3: give me a beief idea of ServiceLoader ? |
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nachoBCN |
have a question from the BarcelonaJUG to Paul |
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mpasteven |
nachoBCN: Tell it to sjmaple |
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JannuMies |
More like provides a default implementation of DI-stuff. |
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JannuMies |
an optional one. |
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jfsavard3 |
@HarmeetSingh he is actually explaining it at the moment |
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jfsavard3 |
A specific point you want clarification perhaps? |
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nachoBCN |
@sjmaple Paul, we know that you expect this question 😀. Why do we need this if we already have dynamic modularity with OSGi? |
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imrel |
this one is nice |
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jfsavard3 |
OSGi is a completely different concept |
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mpasteven |
These modules are going to be a part of the language |
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Guest83247 |
is it possible to load a module at runtime that is not on the initial module path to retrieve extra services ? |
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JJoseph |
the reason to use both the 'uses' and 'requires' keywords? Is it not possible to derive the dependencies by just using 'uses'? |
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mpasteven |
So that means Java 9 based versions of ME, SE, and EE get modules |
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brunoaiss |
sjmaple: Question: Seems to me this modules feature is much more into making java coding more verbose than it already is (which is quite verbose). How can the modules system actually help in the actual programming job without being more of a hassle than a helper? |
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k77 |
Is it possible to add "providing module definitions" at runtime (compared to compile time), to realize kind of plugin-concept? |
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JJoseph |
Sorry, my question got cut off. |
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JJoseph |
Is it necessary to use both 'uses' and 'requires'? Can't you derive the dependencies from 'uses'? |
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HarmeetSingh |
brunoaiss: module system device monolithic application into small services |
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imrel |
enables slim docker images for jre? |
17:38 |
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HarmeetSingh |
@brunoaiss : module system device monolithic application into small services |
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HarmeetSingh |
@brunoaiss : module system split monolithic application into small services |
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javaBin |
1) can module-info be multiple for a module as in one exposing some api and othe exposing the other api. |
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JannuMies |
This is actually quite sweet, since modules can hide implementation details in a ludicrously efficient way. |
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jfsavard3 |
@javaBin If I understand your question correctly, you might want to read about module layers which is not discussed in this demo |
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HarmeetSingh |
module system, handles basics work of build tools and DI |
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HarmeetSingh |
this is excite me |
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javaBin |
2) Also I would like to know if module info could be annotated or externalised in xml or some other properties or json file? |
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jfsavard3 |
but I'm not sure this answer your question |
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jfsavard3 |
and no it can't |
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brunoais |
HarmeetSingh, So... Can you show me this won't be a hassle due to the needs of maintaining the module information file? |
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brunoais |
Or better |
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brunoais |
How can the module info file not be an extra hassle that requires maintenance? |
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HarmeetSingh |
module-info file is, just outlet structure of our module |
17:40 |
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JannuMies |
exposes *? |
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k77 |
The main purpose of this systems seems to be to ensure that clients do not use classes that are "internal implementations" of a certain library (aka module). But this you already had when implementing clients following only the official documentations of libraries/modules. Do I miss something? |
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JannuMies |
If they don't provide that, this thing will be seen as an awful hindrance. |
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HarmeetSingh |
if we are following SRP(Sing Responsible Principle) for desing aplications, this makes application more lossley coupled |
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jfsavard3 |
@k77 it also ensure security between all the jars (module) in your classpath |
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k77 |
Maybe this system is just to help people to implement library clients correctly who are not willing to read the libraries documentation? ;-) |
17:42 |
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jfsavard3 |
...and more |
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HarmeetSingh |
@brunoais if we are following SRP(Sing Responsible Principle) for desing aplications, this makes application more lossley coupled |
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brunoais |
I agree on that |
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HarmeetSingh |
@brunoais unix also follow this principle |
17:43 |
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k77 |
@jfsavard3: are the classpaths really "isolated" on JVM level? I mean when I do in some client module "Class.forName("hidden.SomeClass")" - do I really get some error? |
17:43 |
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HarmeetSingh |
@brunoais and now the days, web applications follow micro-services also |
17:43 |
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bjschrijver |
hi all, I just read through the irc logs during my vert.x talk |
17:43 |
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brunoais |
I still wonder how this modules thing can help any programmer. I sure can restrict your actions so you cannot access classes the developer wants to hide from you.... but... Is that really helping? |
17:44 |
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bjschrijver |
about Observable: i was using the RxJava Observable |
17:44 |
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Jeevesh |
Any idea about externalities module-info into Xml or so? |
17:44 |
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bjschrijver |
slide deck is at http://www.slideshare.net/BertJanSchrijver/vjug-24-building-microservices-with-vertx |
17:44 |
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brunoais |
Yeah. I'm working on 7 microservices ATM where I work at, too ;) |
17:44 |
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HarmeetSingh |
that's cool @brunoais |
17:44 |
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bjschrijver |
example code is at https://github.com/bertjan/vertx3-examples |
17:44 |
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HarmeetSingh |
Great power comes with Great Responsibility @brunoais |
17:44 |
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mpasteven |
J2ME/Java ME actually has something similar to modules |
17:44 |
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bjschrijver |
if you have any questions about the vertx talk, shoot |
17:44 |
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brunoais |
HarmeetSingh, I really agree with that |
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brunoais |
and too many people abuse them |
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HarmeetSingh |
java always rocks |
17:45 |
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Jeevesh |
And can there be a multiple module info for same module. |
17:45 |
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k77 |
Will Java-9 make sure that I cannot do Class.forName("some.actually.invisible.package.ClassName").newInstance() from any module which is NOT intended to see the hidden class? |
17:45 |
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imrel |
HarmeetSingh, didnt seem so on MS user group meeting |
17:45 |
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brunoais |
k77 yes |
17:45 |
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jfsavard3 |
@Jeevesh in different layers, I think yes |
17:45 |
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brunoais |
That's in the slides, actually |
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HarmeetSingh |
@imrel , i am not getting your point, MS user group ? |
17:46 |
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desh |
I missed the past sessions, are they going to be published as videos? |
17:46 |
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jfsavard3 |
@k77 Yes |
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jfsavard3 |
Unless you create a weak module |
17:46 |
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Jeevesh |
@jfsavard3 thanks |
17:46 |
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JannuMies |
*phew*, default behaviour is "expose everything", so this is an optional extension |
17:46 |
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HarmeetSingh |
@desh yes |
17:46 |
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desh |
thanks @HarmeetSingh |
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imrel |
HarmeetSingh, ignore my stupid joke |
17:47 |
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HarmeetSingh |
:P |
17:47 |
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Jeevesh |
Could someone answer my first question regarding externalising module info as Xml? |
17:47 |
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jfsavard3 |
@Jeevesh you can't |
17:47 |
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jfsavard3 |
And what would be the point anyway? |
17:47 |
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JannuMies |
Seems quite easily toolable, if the modules are actually composed as classes. |
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Jeevesh |
Not even use as annotation?? |
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HarmeetSingh |
@sjmaple JDK is split into how many modules ? |
17:48 |
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jfsavard3 |
No.. How would you do that? |
17:48 |
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k77 |
Is there ANY way to access "hidden classes" from non-explicitly-allowed code? I am thinking about frameworks like Spring etc. which use reflection a lot... |
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Nayden |
sorry maybe I missed this and MAYBE it was already explained but will there be rename of public/transient/optional/static etc ? Or it is still up 2 be decided? |
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nachoBCN |
we have another question @sjmaple (but we don't know if we have time) |
17:49 |
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JannuMies |
@k77 I'd think that stuff like aspects create proxy-wrappers around the interfaces, so this wouldn't change a lot of that behaviour... |
17:49 |
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nachoBCN |
what will happen if we are using packages or modules written in another languages like C or C++? |
17:49 |
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jfsavard3 |
If you create a weak module, you'll be able to set even private fields accessible via reflection @k77 |
17:50 |
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k77 |
so the Spring guys will have a funny time to modify their proxying logic to work with Java 9 ;-) |
17:50 |
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jfsavard3 |
Yeah... It may works anyways since there is the concept of "automatic module" |
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k77 |
and others as well - thinking about mocking frameworks like Mockito, Java EE, ...... |
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jfsavard3 |
But anyway, most likely all libraries owner shall update |
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k77 |
maybe I missed this during the talk - I guess the "default settings" for the module system will be compatible to allow what is currently possible, so that Java-8 applications will run without any change under Java-9 ? |
17:53 |
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JannuMies |
It seems that the absence of moduel-info.java leads to current behaviour |
17:54 |
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HarmeetSingh |
awesome |
17:54 |
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Maxwell |
Q: Let's say my application depends on 10s of external modules. Do I need to explicitelly specify on module path. Or can I tell java / javac to take all modules from given folder? |
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k77 |
come on - I would not call Spring call a "half-way solution" :-p |
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HarmeetSingh |
@sjmaple, please confirm Java 9 have 90 modules ? |
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mpasteven |
HarmeetSingh: yes |
17:55 |
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mpasteven |
Java is quite large |
17:55 |
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mpasteven |
Java 8 has around 4,300 classes |
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HarmeetSingh |
java really rocks |
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k77 |
the currently concept of the module systems seems to be quite questionable :-/ |
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k77 |
the current concept of the module systems seems to be quite questionable :-/ |
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imrel |
Java 8 streams rock |
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mpasteven |
HarmeetSingh: In retrospect, Java ME 8 has around 216 classes |
17:59 |
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mpasteven |
If you use the compact profile, it becomes 158 |
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mpasteven |
So Jave ME is really micro |
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HarmeetSingh |
haha |
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HarmeetSingh |
@sjmaple #vjug members also required these tshirts :P |
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k77 |
@simon: I see you online here since 7:00am UTC time - are you planning to make the full 24h shift? |
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mpasteven |
I told the squirrels outside |
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k77 |
good to know |
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dominik |
its "redworks" ? |
18:06 |
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T10 |
what was the IDE used for java 9 presentation ? |
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MeenaK |
command line interface CLI |
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imrel |
dominik its RecWorks on banner |
18:07 |
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mpasteven |
T10: I believe it was just a basic text editor |
18:07 |
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dominik |
thx |
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mpasteven |
The camera should be adjusted to view the screen |
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sjmaple |
yeh, recworks |
18:09 |
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sjmaple |
I don't think I'll do the full 24 hrs :) |
18:10 |
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HarmeetSingh |
@sjmaple #vjug members also required these tshirts :P |
18:10 |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple: Drink coffee, a few dozen energy drinks, and you will be bouncing off the walls |
18:10 |
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Biju |
Auido is not clear |
18:10 |
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sjmaple |
I think we should give some shirts out to members, athough we can't afford >4000 shirts :) |
18:10 |
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nachoBCN |
we'd like some! ;-) |
18:10 |
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sjmaple |
I think audio issue is because of room size |
18:11 |
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sjmaple |
let me see what I can do :) |
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nachoBCN |
perfect! |
18:11 |
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Biju |
thanks |
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HarmeetSingh |
@sjmaple , i am in some or not :P |
18:11 |
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sjmaple |
will check how much budget we have left |
18:11 |
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HarmeetSingh |
sure :) |
18:11 |
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nachoBCN |
btw, we have switched on another TV in order to see better the presentation (otherwise in the main Hangout the screen does not appear completeley) |
18:12 |
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nachoBCN |
(so we have a little lag, but it is not important) |
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sjmaple |
ok, you're viewing via YouTube? |
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nachoBCN |
yes, we have 2 TVs, one with the hangout and another as a "viewer" (to avoid problems with echoes and so on...) |
18:14 |
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nachoBCN |
(people here at Netsuite have great resources ;-)) |
18:14 |
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sjmaple |
ahh ok, that must look confusing :) how long is the delay out of interest? |
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miragemiko |
only microphone is like corrupted |
18:15 |
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nachoBCN |
about 10-30secs |
18:15 |
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nachoBCN |
we can manage that ;-) |
18:15 |
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sjmaple |
:) |
18:15 |
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miragemiko |
:) I hear it like sequence |
18:15 |
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miragemiko |
of streams |
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k77 |
switching off audio because of too bad quality - only following video |
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mpasteven |
It sounds as if speakers are being recorded |
18:17 |
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mpasteven |
i.e. speaker -> microphone -> speakers -> air -> hangouts microphone |
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miragemiko |
true -> turn of speakrs |
18:18 |
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k77 |
what about "test-driven-conferences"? I mean testing it before publishing it? ;-) |
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brunoais |
both are the same size -_-' |
18:21 |
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brunoais |
Oh wait, I'm 3 mins behind |
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sjmaple |
I measured it on screen :) |
18:22 |
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sjmaple |
before the question was asked I think :) |
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brunoais |
oh |
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GNPA |
hi! And got it regarding doing questions |
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brunoais |
I'm having really a hard time understanding what they are saying :S |
18:27 |
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brunoais |
Too much echo and packet drops |
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brunoais |
sjmaple, Is there a way to solve it afterwards? Maybe a local recording? |
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k77 |
+1 |
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k77 |
the audio is effectively unusable |
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k77 |
sounds better now |
18:31 |
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mpasteven |
yes |
18:31 |
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mpasteven |
much better |
18:31 |
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sjmaple |
better? |
18:31 |
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Kundan |
yes |
18:31 |
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k77 |
thanks!! |
18:31 |
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sjmaple |
great |
18:31 |
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robchurch |
that is better (though i didn't have too big a problem before) |
18:32 |
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miragemiko |
great!!! |
18:32 |
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mpasteven |
Much clearer now |
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sjmaple |
sorry, wish I'd have suggested it earlier! |
18:32 |
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k77 |
now start the session again from the beginning ;-) |
18:32 |
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sjmaple |
ahahahah :) |
18:33 |
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k77 |
(kidding) |
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mpasteven |
I could still hear it before, but sometimes syllables would change |
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mpasteven |
and sometimes multiple syllables would change in the same word |
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brunoais |
sjmaple, REALLY better now(!), yes (I'm still 3 mins late) Thank you! |
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smarks |
bjschrijver: thanks for clarifying about rx.Observable |
18:40 |
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smarks |
I was the one who deprecated j.u.Observable so I really didn't think anybody was using it! |
18:40 |
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GNPA2 |
they are darkside programmers |
18:40 |
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nacho_BCN |
funny *real* we've make a poll here and one guy said that he is a full-stack developer... but just only on LinkedIn ;-) |
18:40 |
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shelajev_ |
smarks! Great to see you here! |
18:40 |
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shelajev_ |
:) |
18:40 |
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nacho_BCN |
I've came with a question (mine) |
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mpasteven |
Observable should have been an interface |
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smarks |
shelajev_: I'll be here on and off all day until my time slot at 20:00 PDT (0300 UTC) |
18:42 |
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smarks |
mpasteven: you mean j.u.Observable? |
18:42 |
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mpasteven |
In Java 8, it could have gotten some internal VM magic to use private fields |
18:42 |
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mpasteven |
yes |
18:43 |
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GNPA2 |
coffe number x break |
18:43 |
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nacho_BCN |
how fine (little, smaller, only should do 1 thing) should a micro service should be? should we think on include some services in others? |
18:43 |
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GNPA2 |
yes on mirc |
18:43 |
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GNPA2 |
by nacho |
18:43 |
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smarks |
I think j.u.Observable/Observer are beyond repair ==> deprecated |
18:44 |
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smarks |
not worth fixing; many other things out there are much more useful/powerful |
18:44 |
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sjmaple |
any questions? |
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GNPA2 |
"nacho_BCN |
18:44 |
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GNPA2 |
how fine (little, smaller, only should do 1 thing) should a micro service should be? should we think on include some services in others? " |
18:44 |
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GNPA2 |
asked by nacho_BCN |
18:45 |
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k77 |
my only question: are the slides available somewhere? |
18:45 |
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nacho_BCN |
I mean, why micro? why not "mini"? including more business logic than we usually think from the "developer" perspective? |
18:45 |
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sjmaple |
nacho_BCN: grab the mic |
18:45 |
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nacho_BCN |
uhh.. it's far away! |
18:45 |
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mpasteven |
Afaik, nothing in the class library used Observable/Observer anyway |
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mpasteven |
smarks: Are there any plans to deprecate java.io.* such as java.io.File? |
18:47 |
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smarks |
No concrete plans. Problem is that java.nio is not yet a complete replacement for java.io. |
18:47 |
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GNPA2 |
... also there is a lot of code still using java.io |
18:48 |
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smarks |
Yes, that too. |
18:48 |
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GNPA2 |
backwards compatibility is a problem in a language used for backend as much as Java. |
18:48 |
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GNPA2 |
Stuff must work period. |
18:49 |
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mpasteven |
One thing I am glad for is that I will never have to deal with java.io or serialization |
18:49 |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple: Thanks for hosting us |
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sjmaple |
my pleasure! :) |
18:49 |
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sjmaple |
welcome back smarks |
18:50 |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: Backwards compatibility can be a burden though |
18:50 |
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GNPA2 |
true |
18:50 |
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smarks |
Note, deprecation doesn't imply that something will eventually be removed. This is clarified in Java 9. Only things with the new boolean element forRemoval=true are planned to be removed. |
18:51 |
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mpasteven |
Personally, I feel serialization should be deprecated |
18:51 |
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GNPA2 |
but we have to ensure that migration works |
18:51 |
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mpasteven |
Or at least reinvented |
18:51 |
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GNPA2 |
replacing something or improving it in a massivelly set of libraries used brings problems... and when first launched programming languages improvements often have issues. |
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GNPA2 |
so replacing some module/library/etc that is core in functionalities |
18:52 |
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GNPA2 |
it must work. |
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mpasteven |
Is not Java 9 getting a new line reading library or similar? |
18:55 |
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mpasteven |
similar to GNU readline that is |
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GNPA2 |
Will modularity allow to reduce final .java/.jar smaller |
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GNPA2 |
and how much? |
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smarks |
mpasteven: jshell uses jLine internally, but the latter isn't a public API |
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k77 |
talking about compatibility issues, I would start a "big break" on a much lower level: generics (need to distinguish between covariant and contravariant types, so that an ImmutableList<String> CAN actually be a subtype of ImmutableList<Object>), as first-class citizens (instead of being handled as instances of anonymous classes with bad performance |
19:00 |
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k77 |
), the generics type erasure at runtime, |
19:00 |
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jfsavard3 |
@GNPA2 You mean JDK? Yes, and the result depends on what you include, what you strips and compress rate |
19:00 |
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mpasteven |
If jLine were to be public, it could replace java.io.Console |
19:00 |
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GNPA2 |
Also, will we require to explicitly identify dependencies of priorly created .jars or will this give some autonomously? |
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GNPA2 |
jfsavard3 will it bee automatic ? |
19:01 |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: I do not believe there would be space savings using modules compared to JARs |
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mpasteven |
Unless your code is very modular, you might not need to push an entire clean update |
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GNPA2 |
Is not the hole idea to reduce dependency unused resulting among other advantages in lower final solutions/applications. |
19:03 |
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GNPA2 |
i.e., using modularity? |
19:03 |
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mpasteven |
yes |
19:03 |
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mpasteven |
You can completely cut out CORBA for example |
19:03 |
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GNPA2 |
Then, should a .jar not become smaller? |
19:04 |
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mpasteven |
In theory you have smaller Java downloads and self contained VMs |
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19:04 |
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GNPA2 |
So we have more less bloated JVMs but not necessarly less bloated applications? |
19:04 |
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mpasteven |
yes |
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mpasteven |
Basically as it stands right now, you have 4 splits in the VM |
19:06 |
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GNPA2 |
Then for example in a far future can we have a less eavy netbeans that solely loads modules specifically to the ones required by openned projects, making the IDE way memory lighter/faster? |
19:06 |
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mpasteven |
compact1 (java.lang, java.nio, java.util, etc), compact2, compact3 (javac), and full (AWT/Swing) |
19:06 |
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sjmaple |
oops, forgot to say hello to nacho_BCN :) |
19:06 |
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sjmaple |
hello nacho_BCN :D |
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GNPA2 |
I mean as a practical use case. |
19:07 |
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GNPA2 |
Resorting to modularity |
19:07 |
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mpasteven |
Based on current numbers, there are 90 modules for Java 9 |
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19:07 |
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mpasteven |
It really depends on the Java library however, a module could depend on another module despite an application not using it |
19:08 |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: but over time that could happen |
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19:09 |
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mpasteven |
So, say module A depends on module B, but only uses a single thing from it |
19:09 |
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mpasteven |
and module B grabs all of these other modules |
19:10 |
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mpasteven |
If the application only uses module A, then it can more freely change which modules it uses |
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GNPA2 |
... It allows expansion without having tendence to have monolithic code? |
19:11 |
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GNPA2 |
is that what your are trying to say mpasteven |
19:11 |
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GNPA2 |
? |
19:11 |
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mpasteven |
I would say yes |
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mpasteven |
You would only need to use what you need |
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GNPA2 |
Then modules actually solve a practical problem I had while building a game engine ... |
19:13 |
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GNPA2 |
An academic game engine but an attempt at a modular design nevertheless. |
19:13 |
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mpasteven |
You know, technically Java 7 can use Java 8's lambdas since it has invokedynamic |
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19:14 |
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mpasteven |
Although there are quite a number of missing library methods |
19:14 |
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GNPA2 |
I did not know that. |
19:14 |
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Vimforeverything |
How likely are you to discuss machine learning? :o) |
19:15 |
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mpasteven |
And Java 7 does not support non-abstract interface methods |
19:15 |
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mpasteven |
Which means no defaults |
19:15 |
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GNPA2 |
Vimforeverything the queston was for the presenters right? |
19:15 |
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GNPA2 |
That I knew |
19:16 |
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GNPA2 |
From https://github.com/winterbe/java8-tutorial |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: Well, the Java 8 VM supports for example private non-abstract interface methods |
19:16 |
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GNPA2 |
not mine ! |
19:16 |
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mpasteven |
However Java 8 (the language) does not |
19:16 |
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GNPA2 |
I know |
19:16 |
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GNPA2 |
I use Java 8 version in my code. |
19:17 |
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GNPA2 |
Including lambdas in spite of some performance tweeks here and there |
19:17 |
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GNPA2 |
but in terms of readability the code is much more intuitive. |
19:17 |
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GNPA2 |
For me at least. |
19:17 |
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19:17 |
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mpasteven |
On the VM level, if you know of C/C++, invokedynamic (what lambdas use) can essentially turn into a function pointer |
19:17 |
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mpasteven |
So it has the same cost as a method call |
19:18 |
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mpasteven |
And depending on the dynamic linkage, the VM could optimize it and inline it dynamically |
19:18 |
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GNPA2 |
Including lambdas in spite of some performance tweeks here and there |
19:18 |
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GNPA2 |
Interesting |
19:18 |
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19:18 |
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GNPA2 |
I meant comparing to collection methods. |
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mpasteven |
lamdbas can increase performance in specific cases |
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mpasteven |
Theoretically anyway |
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mpasteven |
The VM would have to be designed for such optimizations |
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Vimforeverything |
@GNPA2 yes the machine learning question was for the presenters...also..hello from connect sponsored group Birmingham! |
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GNPA2 |
Yes I know I worked with CUDA OpenCL and OpenMP in the past, and all my lambdas have an stream. case I want to test between parallel and not. |
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GNPA2 |
Hello back. |
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Vimforeverything |
Yey! |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: collection methods such as say "contains"? |
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GNPA2 |
Also, for a while I used global statc boolean parameters to on/off using lambdas or the collections code. |
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GNPA2 |
among others. |
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GNPA2 |
for or for each outside colections |
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GNPA2 |
It usually gets better with lambdas |
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GNPA2 |
as far as it concerned me |
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GNPA2 |
if the data is reused |
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GNPA2 |
then at a second third and so on runs |
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mpasteven |
Hypothetically if you were making a game, `MethodHandle`s can be very handy |
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GNPA2 |
the overall time is lower than with collections or "standard" cycles.7 |
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mpasteven |
For example if you want an action to be performed on a specific stack frame |
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mpasteven |
before Java 7, you would have to use say an enumeration for actions |
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mpasteven |
Or the even slower reflection (not that performant) |
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nacho_BCN |
lovely functional libraries! |
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GNPA2 |
actually making a game engine |
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GNPA2 |
not a game |
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GNPA2 |
per-se |
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mpasteven |
However with Java 7 and up, you can bind each frame's action to a specific `MethodHandle` |
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GNPA2 |
interesting suggestion did not know it. |
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mpasteven |
Instead of say having 1,000 different implementations of an interface |
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mpasteven |
You can have say a single class containing methods that do things, potentially even things not known at compile time |
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nacho_BCN |
a question for the speaker |
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nacho_BCN |
(we can wait until the end) |
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nacho_BCN |
how stables are those libraries? do you recommend all of them for Production? |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: So you could create a class dynamically at run-time or use javax.tools.JavaCompiler to compile your user scripts |
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mpasteven |
Normally you would need to use reflection which would cause a severe loss of speed |
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mpasteven |
Since everything must be reflected, instead with `MethodHandle` you can bind those special frame actions (which are compiled as `invokedynamic` calls) |
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mpasteven |
And you essentially remove the costs of doing stuff such as `Method.invoke(foo, bar, baz)`. |
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GNPA2 |
for loading some preset configuration on loading would be useful |
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GNPA2 |
for placing stuff in a graphical scene for example. |
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mpasteven |
You can actually use it as a faster means of generating a graphical scene also |
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mpasteven |
You know, vjug26 is valid on another planet =P |
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GNPA2 |
lol |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: If you generate a Java class with methods for your specific scene, you can call into that |
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Vimforeverything |
How would you compare GRPC with inode and TSV? Would you recommend using a ruby on rails back end for this requirement? How does RPC apply to ASN buses? |
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mpasteven |
So it would be similar to how graphics drivers compile OpenCL to their GPU Specific code |
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GNPA2 |
I know I partially do that actually. |
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GNPA2 |
but thanks for the suggestion nevertheless |
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nacho_BCN |
super the Javaslang project! |
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GNPA2 |
I actually got a question what will we have to change in UML diagrams in projects if using Java 9? |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: You could probably add a box around code and call it a module box |
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mpasteven |
Over packages |
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lazerBlade |
hello |
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mpasteven |
Hello |
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GNPA2 |
So in the class diagrams we might encapsulate them as modules ???? |
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mpasteven |
in a way, yes |
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GNPA2 |
My question is more in the sense is this compatible with what we can do with UML diagrams |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: yes |
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GNPA2 |
A question for the presenter in the question part: Will or are modules intended to allow like in the example of CORBA envisioned as way to create interoperable data frames and or libraries usable by other programming languages? |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: I believe you are behind |
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mpasteven |
GNPA2: Are you watching the Java 9 modularization? |
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GNPA2 |
The questions started know |
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GNPA2 |
yes |
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mpasteven |
That was a few hours ago |
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GNPA2 |
danr |
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GNPA2 |
darn |
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GNPA2 |
my bad |
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mpasteven |
Note, CORBA is being deprecated, since noone uses it |
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GNPA2 |
I know actually cases were it is used. |
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GNPA2 |
But replaceble |
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GNPA2 |
the thing is inter language communication |
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GNPA2 |
its a means |
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mpasteven |
That has been somewhat replaced by stuff such as XML/JSON |
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mpasteven |
Or other binary forms |
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Vimforeverything |
So using Kali Linux which what testing sequence methodology would you recommend using arachni? |
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GNPA2 |
Still some people use it because until know it was Java Native |
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GNPA2 |
I actually know someone that used it in some sort of microcontroler to interoperate between C and Java |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple_: A question... |
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GNPA2 |
but again alternative more recent alternatives |
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miragemiko |
why you haven't use them on production ? |
19:44 |
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nacho_BCN |
we have to go |
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mpasteven |
Do you believe that you could stop using lambdas now that you have them? |
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sjmaple |
thanks nacho_BCN ! |
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nacho_BCN |
nice to meet you once again @sjmaple Oleg & co! |
19:45 |
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mpasteven |
nacho_BCN: cya |
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miragemiko |
I don't use them either on production |
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nacho_BCN |
you should come to Barcelona! ;-) |
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sjmaple |
likewise |
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sjmaple |
would love to :S |
19:45 |
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sjmaple |
err, I mean :D |
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GNPA2 |
leaving |
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GNPA2 |
bye |
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nacho_BCN |
;-) |
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mpasteven |
Never meant that hostility was against them |
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mpasteven |
But thanks for the answer |
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mpasteven |
Thanks for the talk! |
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maryg |
Thanks Rabea |
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razorBlade |
does stream and parallel computatoin in java benefits from CG |
19:49 |
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razorBlade |
? |
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juanmanuel |
thank u Rabea |
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razorBlade |
Graphics Cards |
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mpasteven |
sjmaple_: So what are you listening to between streams? |
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razorBlade |
probablt power rangers theme song |
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razorBlade |
probably* |
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mpasteven |
That actually sounds good |
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joedayz |
Hi guys. Regards from Peru. Here we are listening Salsa jeje |
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mpasteven |
Hello |
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juanmanuel |
"go go power rangers.... |
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juanmanuel |
\m/ |
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mpasteven |
Brings back memories of my childhood |
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Praeterii |
why not pokemon theme song? |
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razorBlade |
\o/ |
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razorBlade |
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razorBlade |
simon give thumbs up if you read this |
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