| Time |
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Nick |
Message |
| 00:13 |
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| 00:17 |
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jsys |
You know what makes me instantly doubt something. When its supporters can't point out its weak sides. |
| 00:18 |
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jsys |
Everything needs to have some weak sides, because no solution is best at everything. |
| 00:19 |
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| 00:24 |
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| 01:02 |
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pdurbin |
jsys: you're reminding me of https://sukhbinder.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/python-over-other-languages/ |
| 01:06 |
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pdurbin |
no one likes a fanboy |
| 01:13 |
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| 10:13 |
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| 10:57 |
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| 10:57 |
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cartr |
Is this channel about Fielding's REST, or |
| 10:57 |
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cartr |
about pretty-URL-and-CRUD-over-HTTP REST. |
| 11:21 |
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| 11:38 |
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pdurbin |
cartr: the latter needs a better marketing department |
| 11:40 |
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cartr |
pdurbin: :D |
| 11:41 |
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cartr |
I have a question. Why is it considered important to utilize PUT PATCH DELETE if Fielding doesn't even mention any of them? He only mentions PUT once to basically say it's not useful for write through caching. |
| 11:41 |
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cartr |
The focus is on GET/HEAD it seems, vs the rest (POST) |
| 11:45 |
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pdurbin |
what would one use instead of DELETE? |
| 11:49 |
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| 11:54 |
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cartr |
pdurbin: POST |
| 11:55 |
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cartr |
pdurbin: POST is just any representation that may have some undefined effect on the server resources |
| 12:00 |
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pdurbin |
huh. I guess I'm just so used to DELETE. makes sense though |
| 12:12 |
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trygvis |
DELETE is idempotent, POST is not |
| 12:13 |
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trygvis |
cartr: stuff has evolved a lot since the thesis was written so you have more options now |
| 12:15 |
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cartr |
trygvis: it has evolved conceptually but it's unproven. |
| 12:16 |
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trygvis |
ok |
| 12:16 |
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cartr |
trygvis: the paper was built upon observable effects from the web. |
| 12:16 |
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cartr |
Since then it seems the idea has taken precedence over result. |
| 12:16 |
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cartr |
It happens sometimes. |
| 12:16 |
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cartr |
It's how XHTML2 failed |
| 12:16 |
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trygvis |
oh fuck, you're jsys |
| 12:17 |
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* trygvis |
out |
| 12:18 |
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| 12:22 |
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asdf` |
err, can someone explain this one plase, from http://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypertext-driven |
| 12:22 |
|
asdf` |
"In general, any protocol element that uses a URI for identification must allow any URI scheme to be used for the sake of that identification." |
| 12:23 |
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asdf` |
'for identification'? why would anything about the uri matter, then, as opposed to being just an opaque identifier? |
| 12:23 |
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asdf` |
or am i just reading that wrong. I've read the sentence like 30 times and i have no idea what it's saying really |
| 12:29 |
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pdurbin |
asdf`: maybe it means that if you use "http://..." for identification you should also allow "ftp://..." for identification |
| 12:33 |
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asdf` |
hmm, i'm just not sure why would that ever not be the case |
| 12:33 |
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pdurbin |
dunno |
| 12:33 |
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pdurbin |
asdf`: so are you also cartr and jsys? |
| 12:34 |
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pdurbin |
trygvis: I didn't mind jsys |
| 12:34 |
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asdf` |
say my client can't use ftp, so then i have to explicitly make it so it rejects ftp://, but this is obviously a ridiculously stupid idea, so i assume saying that you shouldn't do this wasn't what was meant there |
| 12:35 |
|
asdf` |
but maybe it is that simple, huh |
| 12:35 |
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asdf` |
pdurbin, thanks |
| 12:35 |
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asdf` |
and no, i don't use any other nick on freenode |
| 12:39 |
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| 13:11 |
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| 13:20 |
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| 13:20 |
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jsys |
It's me, jsys |
| 13:21 |
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| 13:24 |
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| 13:27 |
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pdurbin |
welcome back |
| 13:28 |
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pdurbin |
asdf`: I'm really not sure. |
| 13:28 |
|
jsys |
So I've been reading about CORBA, and turns out CORBA is RESTful |
| 13:28 |
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jsys |
go figure. |
| 13:28 |
|
jsys |
:P |
| 13:28 |
|
jsys |
Yet people don't like it. |
| 13:31 |
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pdurbin |
People seem to hate CORBA with the fire of a thousand suns. I've never used it. |
| 13:35 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: people invented IP because it was too hard to roll your own network topology and routing all the time. |
| 13:35 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: then they invented TCP because rolling your own reliability layer over IP was hard |
| 13:35 |
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jsys |
pdurbin: then they invented HTTP for sharing web pages, that's still not entering the game |
| 13:36 |
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jsys |
So then someone said it's too hard to roll out your own remoting on TCP so CORBA was born |
| 13:36 |
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jsys |
Nope SOAP |
| 13:36 |
|
jsys |
Nope RMI |
| 13:36 |
|
jsys |
Nope DCE |
| 13:36 |
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jsys |
And nope again, and they settled on the *hypertext* protocol?? |
| 13:37 |
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jsys |
It doesn't seem like the final point on the line at all |
| 13:37 |
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jsys |
It's just a temporary thing. |
| 13:37 |
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| 13:37 |
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jsys |
ah damn I got disconnected while explaining my grnd theory |
| 13:38 |
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pdurbin |
evolution continues, sounds like |
| 13:40 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: there's a common pattern, I see no evolution here. I just see people piggybacking on whatever is popular at the time for their wire protocols. |
| 13:41 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: C++ and so on were the norm at the time and CORBA was modeled around that. |
| 13:41 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: at the time of Java XML was really popular to SOAP used XML for the wire format |
| 13:41 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: now HTTP is popular because - web sites... so let's put everything on HTTP |
| 13:42 |
|
jsys |
It gets marketed, inexplicably, as a series of silver bullets that should solve everything but turn out the devil |
| 13:42 |
|
jsys |
But in reality... it's neither a silver bullet nor the devil. |
| 13:42 |
|
jsys |
It's piggybacking on something popular for interop. |
| 13:42 |
|
jsys |
So pedestrian and unsophisicated, that it kinda makes all the snobs arguing over the virtues of this or that approach kinda funny |
| 13:43 |
|
pdurbin |
I think a lot of us are just trying to get stuff done. Trying to build useful software. And if people want HTTP and JSON in 2015, that's fine. |
| 13:44 |
|
locks |
getting stuff done considered harmful |
| 13:44 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: if it was seen like this, it'd be quite refreshing. |
| 13:44 |
|
jsys |
I think in the end as a whole we do get stuff done |
| 13:44 |
|
jsys |
But the internal debate is about stuff that... really doesn't matter. |
| 13:44 |
|
jsys |
It's I think quite interesting we end up doing the practical thing without understanding why. |
| 13:45 |
|
jsys |
In that sense we're not different than animals acting by instinct and just ending up liking whatever seems to work, without knowing why. |
| 13:45 |
|
jsys |
Except unlike animals we're very good at retroactively rationalizing it. |
| 13:46 |
|
jsys |
I mean REST is a bit like retroactive rationalization for the success of the web. |
| 13:46 |
|
locks |
what |
| 13:46 |
|
jsys |
locks: :) |
| 13:47 |
|
jsys |
I'm just sayin' it like it is |
| 13:47 |
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pdurbin |
People who use APIs I help develop don't scream at me that they are not RESTful enough. They seem happy enough with them. They're able to get work done. |
| 13:47 |
|
locks |
1:46 PM <jsys> I mean REST is a bit like retroactive rationalization for the success of the web. |
| 13:47 |
|
locks |
what does this even mean |
| 13:47 |
|
_ollie |
the signal to noise ration has dramatically dropped in this channel since a few days ago… |
| 13:47 |
|
jsys |
_ollie: I'm uhmm... sorry :P? Was there any signal before? |
| 13:47 |
|
_ollie |
yes |
| 13:48 |
|
pdurbin |
It's a nice channel. Good signal, generally. |
| 13:48 |
|
jsys |
locks: web is successful, paper gets written why; It gets accepted as truth, but might as well not be. |
| 13:48 |
|
_ollie |
so: who cares? |
| 13:49 |
|
jsys |
_ollie: I won't come here anymore after I quit in a few mins, allowing you all to swim in your signal all day unpolluted by my noise |
| 13:49 |
|
jsys |
:D |
| 13:49 |
|
_ollie |
seems you're the only one complaining about too much meta-discussion in an endless meta-discussion |
| 13:49 |
|
pdurbin |
_ollie: are you more interested in the nuts and bolts of getting stuff done than the philosophy behind it all? |
| 13:49 |
|
locks |
that's… wow |
| 13:50 |
|
pdurbin |
_ollie: heh. touche |
| 13:50 |
|
_ollie |
pdurbin: you can only get the former having understood he latter |
| 13:51 |
|
pdurbin |
yeah |
| 13:51 |
|
jsys |
locks: so are you just inexplicably shocked I said this or you have some argument against it |
| 13:52 |
|
locks |
jsys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong |
| 13:52 |
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jsys |
I feel slightly uncomfortable, like I feel when I'm telling a religious joke and realize someone in the group is religious and staring at me with this expression of shock |
| 13:53 |
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pdurbin |
jsys: maybe you should write up all your thoughts into a blog post |
| 13:53 |
|
pdurbin |
lay out your argument |
| 13:53 |
|
jsys |
locks: everything I said is factual. The web was there, the paper got written, and it used REST to implicitly explain the success of the web due to its architectural style. |
| 13:54 |
|
* _ollie |
yawns |
| 13:54 |
|
pdurbin |
jsys: what would the title of your blog post be? |
| 13:54 |
|
locks |
jsys: ok |
| 13:54 |
|
_ollie |
"parroting the obvious"? |
| 13:54 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: "Correct architecture by mistake" |
| 13:55 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: it'll be about our history of making simple, practical choices, while having no clue in our internal debates why |
| 13:55 |
|
_ollie |
that's better than wrong architecture by purpose |
| 13:57 |
|
jsys |
The cumulative natural selection effect or making choices for the wrong reason is that some of the choices turn out right by accident, and then we figure out reasons retroactively why, so we can feel good about understanding our choices. |
| 13:57 |
|
pdurbin |
jsys: I'd read your blog post. |
| 13:59 |
|
jsys |
And putting things on URL resources can be explained as simple as "it's popular right now, everyone has/can write an HTTP client" instead of writing a big paper about it. Because the other effects (caching, distribution, intermediaries) occur naturally in any such architecture over time, without predetermined intent. It happens naturally due to for |
| 13:59 |
|
jsys |
ces in the system pressuring the parties into implementing solutions like that. |
| 13:59 |
|
jsys |
It occurs again and again every time a new system like this is developed. |
| 14:00 |
|
locks |
it's kinda like cooking |
| 14:00 |
|
jsys |
pdurbin: I suspect you just want me to feel better about my rants ;) But it's fine |
| 14:01 |
|
locks |
we know a tomato is a fruit |
| 14:01 |
|
locks |
but we put it in salads |
| 14:01 |
|
_ollie |
oh, jeez… I need to go… |
| 14:01 |
|
jsys |
_ollie: when you're back I won't be here. |
| 14:01 |
|
jsys |
_ollie: get some beer to celebrate |
| 14:01 |
|
pdurbin |
jsys: I love a good rant but I like reading it as a single cogent argument. It's less appealing spread over multiple days in chat logs. |
| 14:01 |
|
_ollie |
that's very kind of you, thanks |
| 14:01 |
|
locks |
don't make promises you can't keep |
| 14:02 |
|
jsys |
locks: nah this is my pattern of IRC usage. I come like a storm, last few days and then disappear for months |
| 14:02 |
|
_ollie |
that's how hot air usually works, yes… |
| 14:03 |
|
jsys |
Anyway I'm goin :/ |
| 14:03 |
|
jsys |
Forevah |
| 14:03 |
|
jsys |
:P |
| 14:18 |
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| 14:53 |
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fuzzyhorns |
jsys: one thing that always bugs me about natural selection metaphors is we ignore how wasteful such a strategy really is |
| 14:54 |
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fuzzyhorns |
also lol _ollie |
| 14:55 |
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fuzzyhorns |
jsys: im curious what you think hypermedia actually _is_ |
| 15:06 |
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| 19:15 |
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| 19:35 |
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| 19:37 |
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||Zz|| |
Hi all. I was looking for some API REST cool for demonstrating/teaching purposes. I used to use Spotify MetaData API, and Twitter's one, but both migrated to new APIs which require registration and OAuth2. This adds unnecessary extra complexity to my teaching goal |
| 19:37 |
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||Zz|| |
I know about Google's Geocoding API, which is open and do not require any kind of auth or even API_KEY |
| 19:38 |
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||Zz|| |
do you know some other in this line? |
| 19:41 |
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pdurbin |
|Zz|: parts of github's api don't require auth |
| 19:44 |
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|Zz| |
pdurbin: thank you, I'll check that |
| 19:45 |
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pdurbin |
oh sure |
| 20:00 |
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| 20:28 |
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SlippinJimmy |
So I need an ability to modify an existing resource by setting a rejected state to true. I also need the ability to optionally specify a reason for the rejection which is a one-time message that will not be stored with the resource. Normally I’ve been using a PATCH to updating an existing resource with partial data, but is this a case for using POST? |
| 20:54 |
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