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IRC log for #rest, 2017-03-20

#rest on freenode has been logged here from May 2014 until end of July 2018 but logging has been suspended because the channel has been riddled with spam since August 2018 with no end in site. See the following blog posts about the problem:

Until the spam problem has been dealt with and logging can resume, please visit our wiki at https://trygvis.io/rest-wiki/

Thanks.

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16:08 mac- guys I've read that REST is a constraint driver rather that requirement driven architecture
16:09 mac- I'm not fully understand it
16:09 mac- constraints driven approach is identifying the forces that influence system behavior and then applying constraints so that the design works with those forces instead of against them
16:10 mac- but what are those forces and what does it mean 'applying constraints' ?
16:14 mac- usually we start with some list of business requirements, then we take them and we start to implementing software to achieve them
16:15 mac- and thaths normal -there are requirements and solution is designed to achieve them
16:16 mac- then the solution is tested in some test env and finally after pass is released for production
16:16 mac- that is what I understand, nothing scary here
16:17 mac- but this is reuirements driven architecture
16:17 mac- now what about constraints driven architecture ??
16:17 mac- from the description it sounds like upside-down version of reuqirements driven architecture
16:19 whartung REST contraints are non-functiomal requirements. The constraints are things like the reduced verb set, hypermedia, stateless transactions, etc.
16:20 mac- hm hm hm
16:21 mac- wait a sec
16:22 mac- then those constraints are not requirements but sth what is on high level when raw requirements are low level ?
16:24 whartung your application requriements are things like “post invoices” “don’t over drawn checking accounts”, etc. Those are functional requiremenets. “Must work with 2 floppy drives and 64K of RAM” are non-functional requirements. Those constrain how the app is implemented. Now, the resource constraints (2 floppies and 64K of RAM) are there for different reasons than the constraints of a REST architecture.
16:24 mac- then in REST, before you say anything about i.e. communication between system modules to achieve one or more of low level requirements you set constraint that modules of modules will communicate in simple way with reduced list of commands and then in next stage you start implementing considering the constraint that you've set just before on higher level ?
16:25 whartung Yea, “Given that we have these REST constraints, how do we post invoices and not over drawn accounts”
16:26 mac- well but I see dangerous catch here
16:26 mac- you can set some constraint
16:26 whartung it’s software, nothing dangerous here :)
16:27 mac- and you will spend huge amount of time to impelment solution that will try to achieve the constraint and in the worst case you will end up with conclusion that it is impossible
16:28 whartung well, ideally part of your overall goal is to attain the benefits of a REST architecture. If that’s the case, then, ideally, it’s worth living with the constraints. If you don’t want the benefits, don’t bother with it.
16:32 mac- my actual goal is to understand REST correctly and start using it to get its benefits :D
16:33 whartung http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20335967/how-useful-important-is-rest-hateoas-maturity-level-3/20336307#20336307
16:34 mac- but can we back for a while to your previous sentence ?
16:34 mac- I mean the one:
16:34 mac- your application requriements are things like "post invoices", "don't over drawn checking accounts", etc. Those are functional requiremenets. "Must work with 2 floppy drives and 64K of RAM" are non-functional requirements. Those constrain how the app is implemented. Now, the resource constraints (2 floppies and 64K of RAM) are there for different reasons than the constraints of a REST architecture.
16:35 mac- I don't understand the last sentence in it
16:35 mac- I understand that the functional reqs are low level ones
16:35 mac- and REST contraints will be applied to them
16:36 mac- or, now after set of REST constraints the implementation of low level reqs (those functional) will be done with taking to consideration of REST constraints
16:37 mac- but what do you mean by 'Now, the resource constraints (2 floppies and 64K of RAM) are there for different reasons than the constraints of a REST architecture.' ?
16:37 whartung I was simply pointing out that, back in the day, when everyone had 2 floppies and 64K of RAM, that’s was simply what you had to work with as a application developer. Today, we essentially have “unlimited” resources, and now we design to different contraints. Nobody designs to 2 floppies and 64K of RAM for the “benefits” (unless you used to have 1 floppy and 16K of RAM)
16:38 whartung I linked to that article because most folks don’t need REST for their applications. REST is an edge architecture that a bulk of applications don’t find necessary
16:39 mac- oh ok, but its obviuos and clear that if we really wish to benefit anything from REST arch we must understand and identify those constraints taking with consideration the software we are developing
16:40 mac- every software will have different (more or less) constraints
16:40 mac- currently REST (as I understand) is based on HTTP
16:41 mac- because HTTP provides solutions for all of maturity levels
16:42 mac- whartung: thx I think I understood it better now (or this part of it)
16:42 mac- will study the link you have provided
16:44 whartung REST is readily implemented on top of HTTP, but HTTP is not a requirement for REST.
16:44 whartung As experiements, some have done example REST architectures on top of GOPHER, for example
16:44 mac- yeah HTTP is only a medium for REST
16:45 whartung yes
16:45 whartung most people don’t get as far as to see that distinction
16:45 mac- and the reason why it has been chosen is that it fills all maturity levels
16:46 mac- whartung: yep, and I wish to understnad it correctly to avoid dead ends
16:57 mac- whartung: thank you very much for your help
16:57 whartung yw
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| Channels | #rest index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | plain, newest first | summary

#rest on freenode has been logged here from May 2014 until end of July 2018 but logging has been suspended because the channel has been riddled with spam since August 2018 with no end in site. See the following blog posts about the problem:

Until the spam problem has been dealt with and logging can resume, please visit our wiki at https://trygvis.io/rest-wiki/

Thanks.