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IRC log for #friendlyjava, 2016-01-19

##friendlyjava on freenode

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Time S Nick Message
00:41 sfisque joined ##friendlyjava
01:38 nanoz joined ##friendlyjava
04:19 mr_lou joined ##friendlyjava
11:34 HEGX64 joined ##friendlyjava
12:45 HEGX64 joined ##friendlyjava
15:26 sfisque joined ##friendlyjava
20:03 pdurbin_m joined ##friendlyjava
20:03 pdurbin_m Thoughts on JBoss EAP 7 Beta from an ex-GlassFish Product Manager ? Middle-Me: http://johnclingan.com/2016/01/18/thoughts-on-jboss-eap-7-beta-from-an-ex-glassfish-product-manager/
21:03 sfisque aye, i've been trying to move some of my products over to swarm from standard war deployments
21:20 pulsar i have done a couple of microservices with srping-boot recently, any idea how that would compare to swarm when looking at the bloat-factor?
21:21 sfisque dunno.  i'm just wanting to discard all the spring proprietary stuff and use a container that uses the standard mechs
21:22 sfisque spring…  because…f**& standards
21:22 pulsar heh... yeah. i have been around spring when ejb was real PITA and spring actually called themselves "lightweight".
21:23 pulsar but i'll give them that: without spring, JEE would be a very different beast today.
21:23 sfisque except back in that day, they both suffered from xml-hell.  ejb3 debuted pretty much around the time spring went to annotations, so even that is questionable
21:24 pulsar i will not argue against ejb3.
21:24 sfisque but yeah, ejb1 and ejb2 were pretty crummy
21:25 sfisque too much heavy lifting and not enough convenience
21:26 pulsar i hear you. having a breakpoint in a spring app and looking at the callstack still gives me nausea
21:27 pulsar but still, it is a hate-love relationship i have with spring. if you ignore all that bloat and do not care about standards that much, lt lets you get stuff done quite fast.
21:28 sfisque depends.  i find with ee, i spend more time actually building code.  with spring, i spend more time configuring their code because their "conventions" only work for toy apps and not real world solutions.
21:29 pulsar but that is not an issue of the framework but one which relates to the knowledge of the latter
21:31 sfisque again, standard versus "our way".  i'll take standard so i can get back to work and not have to dig through tons of one-off discussions in blog entries
21:32 sfisque spring reminds me of "the ibm way".  read the 39204234 page manual and you get to be the expert who charges tons of money, rather than just selling me a product that works the way i want it
21:32 pulsar i would call spring a defacto-standard, just different but similar in various areas to jee
21:33 pulsar and yeah, it requires you to understand lots of stuff how the framwork works internally - the alternative is to google mile long stacktraces all day.
21:33 pulsar on the other hand i always found the documentation for spring to be very pleasant to read
21:34 sfisque again, only for toy apps.  i have found huge holes and contradictory statements throughout their docs.  makes my eyeballs twitch
21:34 pulsar too many cooks. agree
21:34 pulsar chefs even.
21:34 sfisque lolz
21:35 pulsar and yet, > 50% of the projects i have done in the past 10 years were not spring ;)
21:39 sfisque from what i have seen, spring is huge where "body mills" are prevalent (india, russia, china, etc.)  in u.s. spring is often accepted because that's the code that comes in "from off shore", or it's enforced because they know the off-shore contract house has 342424234 devs who all know spring (and not much else)
21:41 pulsar dont get me started on this bs. never seen outsourcing of anything (spring included) to work out well. besides, you wont find spring on the blueprint in bigger companies over here anymore anway.
21:41 sfisque where you at pulsar?
21:42 pulsar munich
21:43 sfisque interesting.  spring is still leveraged in big u.s. corps, but primarily because 145% of the work is off-shored :P
21:43 pulsar let me see... last 3 gigs were for Siemens and BMW.
21:44 pulsar no spring on the blueprint there anymore, at least for the divisions i have been working with
21:44 sfisque lucky you :-D
21:44 pulsar allianz might be still using spring iirc.
21:44 pulsar well... i am a freelancer, so i don't care that much :) my luck comes from the bill i write every month :)
21:44 sfisque wells fargo uses lots of spring, but then almost all of their dev is in hiderabad
21:45 pulsar i have 0 problems to use any tech as long it somewhat makes sense.
21:45 sfisque aye.  i feel "kinda" same, but i prefer standard over proprietary.  makes my life easier (less reading, more doing)
21:46 pulsar i think that keeping it open minded and pay attention to the approaches other farameworks took is very benefitial. and i have somewhat a problem with the definition of a standard
21:47 pulsar just because a bigger company / consortium  said so?
21:47 pulsar not saying that standards are bad, just saying that other frameworks could/should be considered standards aswell when they have enough momentum or market share
21:48 pdurbin I thought thought the idea was that if you stick to standards, you can deploy your war file to either wildfly or glassfish or whatever.
21:48 sfisque that's part of it.
21:48 pulsar yeah... right :)
21:48 pdurbin so you're both using swarm and wildfly/jboss. I'm still using glassfish
21:49 sfisque another part of it is, maintainance.  i shouldnt have to pour over archain manuals, just to maintain code
21:49 pulsar you made that point more than once, i understand.
21:50 sfisque :-D
21:50 pulsar i just don't agree :D
21:52 pdurbin maybe I should get with the times
21:53 pulsar like node.js? yeah... lets talk about standards there. the average halflife of any new framework seems to be ... dunno, 3 weeks?
21:53 pulsar and yes, i have been doing lots of that recently.
21:56 pulsar yet, it manages to get more and more relevant. as a dev environment for SPAs, desktop applications and perpahs one day on the server-side next to other defacto-standards such as java, python or ruby.
21:57 pdurbin pulsar: I'm with you on the "as long as it somewhat makes sense"
21:57 pulsar yeah, but thats because i am a whore and i enjoy writing code in any language. even JS :)
21:58 pdurbin :)
21:58 pdurbin yeah, exactly

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